Do Looks Matter To Women?

@parkey: skw just nailed it. he said it as it is. some people get that 5 secs effortlesssly, while others have to work hard or enven manipulate their way in to stand a fighting chance, what you do when you get that chance is up to you. @ skw, you are right on the mark.

Yes, I did have better things to do then respond to you. That was because you were being rude to me at the time. You called me a louse, made various references to what you perceived to be my lack of ability when it comes to logical thought etc…etc.. That’s not me misconstruing or misrepresenting anything. You actually did insult me openly on that thread. You called me a “louse” for one thing.

However, you replied to something I said on this thread without insulting me so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I respect, respond and engage in debate with people who agree and disagree with me. Not with people who insult me. That simple.

Once again I have not missed the point. Yes, people can thoroughly identify a problem. They do so by taking a look at everything that is going on. Analysing multiple data sources is one of the things they do within the scientific method in order to discover things, make predictions, prove/disprove existing theories etc.

Darwin did not just instantly scream; “oh, it’s caused by evolution!” Instead, he made a detailed study and analysis of various things and came to a conclusion based on that detailed study and analysis.

You do not get an honest, thorough picture of a problem by isolating one variable and automatically assuming it’s the main or sole cause of the problem. You get that honest, thorough picture by considering everything that is going on. If you want to prove your looks are the main or sole problem you have when it comes to attracting women then you’d need to prove that other variables are not the main or sole cause of your problems when it comes to attracting women. And to do that you’d need to investigate those other variables.

You ask people here to believe that you lack in looks yet you provide no proof that you do lack in looks. You claim not to believe things without substantiated proof. Well, we hold ourselves in this case to the same standard.

On your point about the 5 seconds…if a guy can get a girl into bed in 5 seconds then he’s got mastery that goes way beyond his looks. First impressions count but you can recover from them if need be. And you know who else has got repeated opportunities to approach/talk to women besides Mr “good looking guy”? You have. Nothing to stop you going up and talking to a woman regardless of your looks.

”
I never said a guy can get a a girl into bed in 5 seconds. I was going on Marni’s point of looks buying you credibility for the first 5 seconds, and adding that you cannot trivialize that as she repeatedly does.”

First of all, Marni does not trivialise that to my mind. Secondly, when it is more than possible to recover from bad first impressions and even change how a person feels about you/perceives you, why obsess so much about the first five seconds of an interaction? Especially when you can’t control how other people react to you anyway.

“Secondly, I’m not isolating one variable and saying it is the end all and be all as you claim I do here:”

So, you’re not saying looks are your main or sole problem when it comes to attracting women?

“Once again you show your inability to read and logically process thoughts,”

No I don’t. If I can’t read then I can’t reply to what you’ve said. Logically, I must possess the ability to read. And if I’ve just processed that logically then, logically, I must posses logical thinking abilities.

“my point here is that Marni trivializes the value of looks by saying “it just buys you 5 seconds” and leaves it at that, not taking into account the psychological bump a guy would get by repeatedly getting “those 5 seconds”

Again, Marni is not trivialising anything. You don’t have to be Mr Good Looking Guy to repeatedly get those first five seconds with women.

Also, you could be a male model and those first five seconds interacting with a woman could still go terribly wrong and not provide you with a self esteem or confidence boost. You cannot control other people and there reactions to you.

“Zee (who’s posted only 2 messages and has made more sense and shown his ability to actually read, than you have in your 20 messages) has fully got my point by his assertion here:”

Zee agrees with you. You seem to like people who do that.

“”he said it as it is. some people get that 5 secs effortlesssly, while others have to work hard or enven manipulate their way in to stand a fighting chance, what you do when you get that chance is up to you.”

You don’t have to be Mr Good Looking Guy in order to effortlessly get those first five seconds. Male model looks or not, you cannot control how people react to you. There’s every chance Mr Good Looking Guy could get bad reactions from women in those first five seconds & end up with no psychological bump at all.

“Have I “insulted” (ie pointed out your repeated misrepresentation of my words) you enough on this particular thread to shut you up?”

How was calling me a louse on that other thread “pointing out misrepresentation of your words”? I did not repeatedly misrepresent your words. But if I did, the proper thing to do would simply be to point that out politely. It’s how you have a sensible debate with someone. You don’t have a sensible debate with someone by calling them a louse and making repeated insulting references to what you perceive to be their lack of intellect, logical thoughts etc.

People on here disagree sometimes. Most people on here manage to disagree without calling others a louse or making insulting references to their intelligence levels and logical thought processes. Now, I want to stay on topic with this thread. If you want to insult me, I can’t control that. But logically, attacking the arguer instead of the argument shows a weakness in debating skills. So the question really is: do you want to stay on topic and debate the issues or do you want to spend a long time insulting me?

If you feel I have misrepresented what you have said, politely point it out to me and I will address it. Resorting to insults doesn’t do anyone any good.

”
No, well, it’s sort of. What I am saying is it had a heavy influence on my ability to attract women during those pivotal years, and therefore has heavily tainted my attitude and feelings about my ability to attract women.”

Okay, so it had a heavy influence on your ability to attract women during those pivotal years. And that went on to heavily taint your attitude and feelings about your ability to attract women. I agree that negative experiences in the past can affect how we feel about ourselves and our abilities.

And what I’ll ask here is this: who is in charge of how you feel about your ability to attract women? Who is in charge of your attitude when it comes to attracting women? Is it you or is it some women who rejected you, some negative past experiences etc?

“So it was my looks *at that time* which was the main problem.”
I agree that that’s what you think, feel and believe. Maybe it’s true. Maybe you lacked in the looks department at that time and it caused you huge problems. We don’t know. None of us have seen what you looked like then or what you look like now so we can’t judge. I was not a huge hit with the ladies at high school. I choose not to define how I feel about my ability to attract women based on those experiences. You have the power to decide what you base your confidence with regard to attracting women on.
I completely agree with Marni when she says this:

“Good character gets more attractive. Bad character gets down right ugly.”

I agree with what Marni says here too.

“However, ‘good character’ as it applies to attracting women is not ‘good character’ in general. I have amazing character, I help people, I’m polite, Im courteous, I’m thoughtful. I’m all that. yet women tell me to repeatedly f*ck off (metaphorically now, but explicitly back then).”

I don’t know you or how you interact with women but, if you allow me, I’m going to make a guess about what might be going on for you: it sounds like you’re just projecting one type of vibe to women. Helping people is cool/attractive. Being polite, courteous, thoughtful etc is also cool/attractive. Keep being those things, relax and be playful. Being playful will allow you the confidence to flirt, project a confident and sexual vibe etc. Being playful will also broadcast that you’re confident and it’ll help you build social circles and increase your social status.

I could be way off here but that’s my guess/suggestion for you. I want you to succeed with women and be happy.

“Ok, now you’ve gone from misrepresenting my words to misrepresenting HERS?!? This was unexpected.”

No, I’m not misrepresenting anyone. I stated I don’t think Marni is trivialising anything. The bit about not needing to be Mr Good Looking Guy to get those five seconds comes from my philosophy. I’m not saying Marni said it so I can’t be misrepresenting her words.

“It’s clear she’s saying that looks does give you a clear advantage with women in those “first 5 seconds” but the entire crux of her message is that it’s a small, insignificant advantage, that can be squandered by not having “a good attitude” or “being boring”"

Marni says looks matter. She doesn’t say looks gives you a clear advantage with women in those first five seconds. Though it is possible to interpret her words that way & Marni can obviously clarify things if she wishes to. I respect Marni and what she has to say. She’s helped me make huge progress in my sex/romance life. And I remain my authentic self. Sometimes I agree with Marni & sometimes I don’t.

“And my point is, no, it’s an advantage with far reaching implications on one’s psychology, because these guys *repeatedly* get a 5 second advantage.”

But these guys won’t get positive reactions from women in those first five seconds all of the time. Maybe not even most of the time either. Women remain independent human beings with an infinite number of response potentials. These good looking guys cannot control how the women will react to them. I think most of these good looking guys (just a guess here) worked out that basing their confidence with regard to attracting women on how some random women react to them would make them into emotional wrecks. I imagine they found better ways to foster their self esteem, confidence etc.

Women approach good looking guys. And some women approach not so good looking guys. Good looking guys and not so good looking guys both have chances to get those important five seconds with women repeatedly. Women approach them. They can approach women.

“You have misrepresented me, you continue to do so (and now you’ve started to misrepresent Marni as well, which to be honest I wasn’t expecting)”.

As I pointed out, I have not misrepresented Marni. I stated I don’t think Marni is trivialising anything. I then went on to state that I think that you don’t need to be Mr Good Looking Guy to repeatedly get those first five seconds with women. By saying that I’m misrepresenting Marni, you’re misrepresenting what I’m saying.

“I was polite the first 25 times it happened, even my patience has its limit”.

You were very quick to launch into insults, negative references to what you perceive to be my intellect…you even made negative comments about how I work with my clients as a therapist. If you feel I misrepresent your words, fair enough. Say so politely and clarify your point. That helps the debate progress & we all get a better idea of what each other is saying.

“Well yes, Zee agreed with me, but that’s incidental, he didn’t misrepresent or misconstrue my words.”

I don’t think or feel I misrepresented your words. Again, if and when you feel I do, point it out politely and clarify what you’re saying. That way the debate progresses smoothly and people get to have their say. I have no malice or ill will towards you. I will stand up for my beliefs & philosophy but if you end up happy and getting together with the women you want, that’d be great news to my ears.

JR, Marty is quite possibly the dumbest person I’ve ever interacted with on any forum, anywhere (I went to public school, so I’ve met dumb people in real life)

Look at what he says about what Marni’s saying:

“”Marni says looks matter. She doesn’t say looks gives you a clear advantage with women in those first five seconds.”"

This has reached levels of stupidity far beyond I thought was humanly possible. I guess he got bored with “debating” me by misrepresenting my words, claiming that I say thing which I clearly do not, and moved on to doing it to the very owner of the site he posts on.

Anyone with half a brain cell still kicking around up there knows that Marni clearly states that the MANNER in which looks matter, is that they give you an advantage in those “first 5 seconds”:

Read (again):

I’ve said it a million times that yes looks DO matter, but only in the first 5 seconds of interaction, because for the first 5 seconds we have nothing else to base our perception of you on.

Here it as again, just in case:

I’ve said it a million times that yes looks DO matter, but only in the first 5 seconds of interaction,

Seems to me here that Marni is saying looks buy you extra credibility that you wouldn’t otherwise get, in the initial interaction (even if it’s only 5 seconds)

“I don’t think or feel I misrepresented your words. Again, if and when you feel I do, point it out politely and clarify what you’re saying.”

Then quite frankly, you’re a f**kin idiot. I’ve politely clarified my points until my head exploded 10 times over, and you still fail to get it, I still think you must be doing this purposely to try and get under my skin. Quite simply, no one can be this perpetually idiotic and moronic in their argument and debate ability (I shudder at using the word debate ability in your presence)

JR, with respect to this point:

“Now what you do with that knowledge ( either crawl into the fetal position and cry about how unfortunate you are, or get over it and concentrate on other areas that you shine at ) that’s another story…”

Oh fair enough, but all Im asking for here is a clear admission about the place of looks, if the response is “yea we know you’re right, but shutup and deal with it” then hey, that’s a fair response, but look how arduous it is to discuss with this louse ? He won’t even agree on basic fundamental facts.

“I mean, based on looks alone, would you want the lamborghini or the civic at first glance? ”

Well, with people I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. Neither of those two objects you mentioned have feelings about their own self worth.

But it’s refreshing, the more and more people I see on here that actually acknowledge the value of looks and don’t talk their way out of it. (with people like Marty that can’t even acknowledge a foundation point, you can see how frustrating it would become)

“It’s a far better use of time to use your intellect to show off your best self to people/women then it is to argue that some random other guy may have an advantage you don’t have.”

I use my intellect to speak the truth. If that bothers you, then so be it.

“SKW, you’re a smart person. So it shouldn’t take you too long to realise that constantly arguing that some random guy may have an advantage you don’t have will do nothing to help you get the women you want. ”

I know, but that doesn’t mean much coming from you. Being smarter than you is like saying someone can recite the alphabet quicker than a 3 yr old.

I’m not “interpreting” Marni’s statements on the place of looks, I’m stating them.

And you clearly are denying her statement on looks buying you credibility within the first 5 seconds, as a direct advantage. You aren’t interpreting them, you are misrepresenting them.

This is a clear distinction you have yet to learn.

This is akin to your “I was just musing” bullshit from before. I’ve debated you into the ground repeatedly, only to have you backtrack, misconstrue, and misrepresent all over again. This is the downfall in an online debate, I can type out the most lucid, cogent, sensible argument, and you’re free to just ignore it and ramble on about idiotic nonsense, and change the topic at will.

“But once again, you cannot control your insult filled outbursts. If you cannot control your insult outbursts, a sensible debate/discussion between us is impossible.”

No they’re highly controlled outbursts. And a sensible debate with you is impossible because it pre-supposes you will debate sensibly, which requires you to read, and logically process words instead of misrepresenting them.

you’ve been given mulitple opportunities to do so, with abysmal failure each time, so go back to doing “those things you are better off doing”

“Now looks don’t determine the end result, but at that first impression, at that moment when she lays eyes on you, I believe that looks do have an impact and they do offer somewhat of an advantage.”

JR Thanks for taking one of the hits, although, you see, you make sense and can logically think, which means you have no shot at debate with Marty. He doesn’t let little details like “making sense” get in his way.

Thing is though: an honest, thorough definition of the problem would involve looking at everything that’s going on. It would not simply be an exercise in isolating one variable and assuming that one variable to be the main or sole cause of the problem.

With respect to your situation with women, we’ve got nowhere near enough data to make an honest, thorough definition of your problem. Neither have you. Unless you happen to have to hand reams and reams of feedback from the women you’ve approached/dated/been rejected by etc.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. Maybe your looks really do hold you back. We don’t know. None of us have, to my knowledge, seen your photo so we can’t tell. We also have no real idea how you approach/interact with women.

Plenty of guys who are not super good looking attract women. If you’re not attracting women, would it not be a good idea to ask yourself the question: what are those not super good looking guys doing that I’m not doing? Would that not be a more honest, thorough and even logical way to look at this problem than arguing that some random good looking guy might have it easier?

You have spoken before on here about your intellect being strong. So let me ask you: which is the best use of your intelligence:

1) Arguing that some random guy somewhere might have it easier.

2) Working out how you can attract the women you want to attract?

“But of absolutely no value to you or anyone.”

so the truth isn’t valuable to me or anyone? hmm.. interesting perspective.

step #1 to any solution is an honest, thorough definition of the problem. Period.

” But my experiences are different. I’ve seen many guys who are not super
good looking/not good looking go into random bars and end up owning the
room.”

Then you live in some colony that isn’t following rules of planet earth, and I need to see pictures of these people that you’re talking about. Absent any extraneous social proof, I’ve never witnessed it.

“Fact of the matter is that the ability to generate and maintain rapport is not something that only “good looking people” have.”

No, but the point is, absent any external social proof, it’s going to be magnitudes easier because the “initial 5 second approval” they get has FAR reaching implications on the ability to do generate that rapport. Imagine any situation in life when you walk in having people automatically think highly of you – of course it’s going to reinforce positive feelings about yourself.

That’s the point Marni misses (and understandably, the more people that understand this properly, the less product she sells) is that repeatedly getting that “first 5 seconds” can go so far to give you better interactions with women !

As for me, I’ve resigned that my looks prevent me from getting that initial 5 seconds, therefore I really have no shot at all in general settings where “there’s nothing else to base it on” And I’ve focused on situations in which I will have social proof.