How Women Use The Shit Test

How Women Use The Shit Test

BY: Orit Arfa 

There is no scientific definition for the “shit test,” but it is generally defined as follows: “the test a woman gives a man in the early stages of dating, usually through curious and sly questions or comments.”

Here are some example and their categories (they vary in shittiness):

A) Some deal with your courtship rituals such as: “I can’t talk with a man until he buys me a drink”
B) Some deal with her sex appeal, like “that bartender (woman) is so hot? Don’t you think?”
C) Some deal with your dating habits, like “so you’re quite the player, aren’t you?”
D) Some deal with your intellectual prowess. She’ll may tell a joke (it could be unintelligble) and say, “You’re a little slow, aren’t you?”

Women do this, sometimes consciously, sometimes not. If we do it—embrace it. It means we’re interested. It means we’re stimulated—or want to be. It means we’re setting up sexual tension. It means we want to dance, rather than just sit around bored, twittling our thumbs, waiting for some cuter guy to come along. But it also means we’re setting up a protective layer—because you might just be the one to make us happy, and hence hurt us.

The shit test is often interpreted as the test a woman gives to see if he is worthy of her. It is her way of weeding out the pussies from the men. She’s so great and perfect and she has the pick of the litter, so she has the luxury of choosing the smartest, the best, and the fittest. That’s only half the story. Here’s the other (female) half: the shit test doesn’t only test your confidence, it is designed to raise hers!

Even the smart and beautiful woman have many insecurities. (Is he only after my body? Will he still like me without make-up on and when I have morning breath? Will he continue to pursue me when I start needing or pursuing him?) She knows she’s the prettiest woman at the party, but she also knows she’s a little girl seeking love. So she sets up small pitfalls, knowing that some ditches are in store when you get past the first drink and actually get to know each other.

The questions/comments are designed to (referring to the earlier examples, respectively):

A) Get what is due her as a desirable lady being courted by a man
B) Confirm your attraction to her above others
C) Differentiate you from the jerks
D) Know that you’ll seek to understand her and be a better man for her

But the desirable woman doesn’t want to broadcast her insecurities, so she hides them through wit and challenge. The man must show he’s not fazed by or even cognizant of her insecurities, so he should respond with wit and challenge in kind, while also boosting her up. Some PUA’s advise the man to ignore the shit test (by changing the subject)—and that’s good advice if you only want to get into her pants. But if you actually want to date her, you should step up and use the shit test as an opportunity to prove that you can handle her–when she’s up on that pedestal as a goddess, and when she’s a plain woman taking a poop on a different kind of pedestal.

Here are some examples of answers to the sample questions above. (If the chemistry’s right, your intuition should guide you.)

A) I was about to get you a drink, but I didn’t want you to think I wanted to get you drunk
B) She’s okay (then look at her like with desire), but you’re the hottest girl here (watch her blush)
C) Of course I’m a player, just looking for the right woman to reform me (wink)
D) What can I say, I’m no match for your wit, but I can drive a pretty fast Ferrari, can you?

Ultimately, the shit test is not only testing yours, but hers. And when the shit hits the fan, she wants to know that you can laugh about it together. She’s human too.

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  • Adam Sweet

    women do this kind of thing?

    gah!

    I”m so glad I’m a happily married man. When I was dating, I hated men who played these games. Now to read that women are doing it too. This is a step backward in my opinion.

    • Marni

      I am not sure you read the entire article. It talks about women asking these questions because they are insecure in themselves. Again NOT A GAME but a cry subtle cry for help. We women have a weak moments as well.

      Even your wife will do this stuff. Read the whole article and I guarantee it will teach you ways to stop the nagging and get you more sex with your wife.

      • Will

        It’s so funny to me that women always say men are terrible communicators. I’ve, for the most part, found this to be just the opposite. When a guy friend has a problem, he tells me. When a girlfriend has a had a problem in the past, it usually only comes out in an explosive tirade of insults and anger. And why? Because she didn’t know how to communicate her problem and held it in for so long that she couldn’t take it anymore. Why didn’t I understand all that body language she was telling me? Am I BLIND??? Well yeah, of course I was saying one thing, but my body was saying just the opposite, how could you not see that? HAHA

        I have been very stubborn to accept dealing with all this, but I’m afraid I’m going to just have to give in and play this game. And yes, it is a game, whether the girl realizes it or not. The girls want the guys to figure them out, and basically the less interested the guy seems in them, the more they are attracted, thereby chasing away all the really good guys, leaving the players as the remaining multiple choice.

        Ok, so the problem is in the girls’ heads. They constantly over analyze everything and want us to take the time to learn how to recognize all this body language, and learn how to be attractive to them. Ok, so why not just save time, cut out all this playing, and learn to recognize your own insecurities, and how those are the TRUE things that cause a woman not to be attracted to a guy…a GOOD guy.

        Oh well, I’m 41 and am tired. Guess I’ll just “join ‘em” as they say. : )

        • Yorgos

          Will, you are probably being too nice. My guess is you are divorced and dissillusioned. Man, I’ve been there. Remember, you are the prize, and she has to prove herself to you.
          Keep the faith, and remember, there are a few good ones out there, you only need one! :-)

          ps Thanks Marni for the great info!

      • Context Matters

        “NOT A GAME but a subtle cry for help.”

        Sorry but the “Shit Test” sounds EXACTLY like game playing.

        My ex girlfriend gave me a shit test on our first date.

        She asked me about other attractive women in the room. I ignored them, focused on her and her passed the shit test.

        My prize for passing the test was to have a relationship with a deceptive woman who couldn’t communicate like an honest person. Not good.

        • Admin

          Wow. I am very sorry about that. Some times we produce a bad egg. Some women are extremely insecure and are unable to self sooth. Ends up destroying the relationship.

          The shit test, is not a game. Women do not sit at home and think “How can I get him tonight?? hahahaha”. It’s not pre-meditated. These tests/statements we make really stem from anxiousness created by an insecurity that bubbles up and exploded out of our mouths. I am not saying that this behavior is right. In fact, I detest it, even when I do. BUT what I am telling you is that it happens so that you can be prepared and help your woman out when she has a weak moment.

          The rule to follow for the shit test, especially if you are in a relationship, is HUG IT OUT. Seriously. All we want at that moment is to realize that you still love us or care for us even when we lose control.

  • http://magarshak.com Greg

    Usually if a girl tells me she wants a drink, I take the opportunity to ask, “really, do you have a boyfriend?” That way, we can get the main question out of the way — is she single. I’ve had girls tell me “actually yes, I do” (what does that say!) … if they do, I shouldn’t really be buying drinks for them, should I. :)

    • Marni

      NO YOU SHOULD NOT. Hold onto your cash if they have a boyfriend UNLESS you actually are enjoying the conversation, are ok with the fact they have a boyfriend and REALLY want to buy them a drink.

      Good tactic. A little abrasive but effective I am sure.

      • Yorgos

        Right you are Miss Marni.

      • Ardiana the adventurer

        Boyfriend is definitely better than husband. You gotta think positively. :)
        ~AJ

  • Marni

    Hahaha! I really think a lot of you are just reading the first line.

  • Neal G.

    “I can’t talk with a man until he buys me a drink.”

    That’s funny, I’m the same way with women. Why don’t you get me a Manhattan?

    • Marni

      I love when men do stuff like that. I am not the kind of girl who demands a drink but if I were to and a man responded that way I would totally be in love with him.

      • Neal G.

        I’m guessing most gals who would demand a drink wouldn’t appreciate the cheekiness, though.

        Catch-22. :-)

        • Yorgos

          Who Cares?

      • Yorgos

        Oh Marnie, you are so hot!

  • http://www.antisoccermom.com December

    Stop giving away all our secrets, damnitt.

    • Marni

      See I told you women would get mad ;)

      • Art

        these are not “secrets”…
        we humans have been here for over 2000 years and there’s nothing new under the sun..
        just more real and true info being put into the mainstream community and more ppl being open and honest in times of so much dishonesty…
        the honest ppl want what’s real..and tired of all the games for centuries.. that’s all…
        we only have a short time in this life…let’s get on with it!
        Right Marni?

        • Marni

          Absolutely Art! The more authentic and honest we are the better results we will get. It’s all the crap in our mind and beliefs about what we “SHOULD” be that get us clouded and insecure.

  • http://innerbadass.com Dan Donche

    Do you know how many shit tests I have failed before I figured out what was going on? Most of my foibles were due to trying too hard to impress girls or just overthinking shit, almost like I could sense something was up but I wasn’t quite sure what. Now I just either smile wryly or say something witty. I think the key is to a) not get pissed if she seems too testy and b) don’t fail the test by trying to impress her (aka buying her a drink just because she told you to do so).

  • Reason

    The utter lack of anything intelligent in this article has made this article infamous: http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/8zo2n/how_women_use_the_shit_test/

    Men do not enjoy emotional land mines. Men are men, be honest with them. Every scenario is different between men and women, but when games like these “shit” tests are played, it speaks volumes about the character of the woman and shows those insecurities to be detrimental to a man’s health and well-being.

    It’s really just common fucking sense. The bullshit you throw out will always coming back to you.

    • Marni

      Reason, I completely agree with you and I am a woman and this is my site. I wish men and women would just be honest and not use these “shit tests” but they currently do but they can be stopped and Orit gives great examples of how to cause a woman’s insecurities really quickly.

      This article is not saying it’s a game or something shitty that women do to men it is saying it is something shitty women do to themselves.

      I am a strong, confident, independent woman, 95% of the time. When I like someone, I have my moments. With all the information I know I still have stumble and fall off the wagon but only for a short while.

      If I have a man that can work with my insecurities and I can work with his then it is a match made in heaven.

      I wish the same for everyone.

    • Orit

      This kind of dismissal of what’s in a woman’s heart (whether you agree or not) is the kind of behavior that turns most women OFF and leads to more alienation between the sexes.

      Let’s say I gave this article to a man as a glorified shit test (whether consciously oro not). If he dismissed it and called me a manipulative game-player—I’d definitely turn the other direction, feeling not listened to and attacked. We’re not manipulative game-players—we’re just scared too!

      Instead, men should welcome a new point-of-view to understand the other sex—her strengths and weaknesses–and not to build more walls. We must learn to accept rebuke from each other, and that’s also what “shit tests” are designed to do.

      If I gave this article to a guy to read, he wouldn’t be for me if he gets scared or put-off. My dream response would be something like: “Wow, I didn’t know men could be such jerks to make you have to shit on us like that as a way of protecting yourself. It must be hard being pretty and smart because you’re always put on a pedestal—or else men just want to get into your pants. In an age where looks are emphasized over brains and character, no wonder you have to tread carefully and make sure a man is interested in penetrating your heart. Okay, Orit, I think I’m ready for you. Give me your best shot—give me your hardest “shit test” and I will do my best to respond.” At which point I would smile coyly (as a natural reaction), maybe with a tear dripping down, and just give him a HUGE hug, feeling like I’m already falling in love.

      • Neal G.

        > I didn’t know men could be such jerks to make you have to shit on us like that as a way of protecting yourself.

        Whoa—you’re trying to blame /men/ for /women’s/ insecurities? You /have/ to engage in passive-aggressive behavior? I’m sorry; no.

        Just because I /understand/ why a person might act the way that they do doesn’t mean that it’s cool. Though if someone pulled one of those questions on me, her response to my answer would tell me a lot about whether it was worth continuing the conversation.

      • Red

        “Wow, I didn’t know men could be such jerks to make you have to shit on us like that as a way of protecting yourself. It must be hard being pretty and smart because you’re always put on a pedestal—or else men just want to get into your pants. In an age where looks are emphasized over brains and character, no wonder you have to tread carefully and make sure a man is interested in penetrating your heart. Okay, Orit, I think I’m ready for you. Give me your best shot—give me your hardest “shit test”

  • Brian

    Hahaha this is priceless and beyond true.

    Some that I’ve gotten are, “I can’t reach this, can you get it for me?”; “don’t you think Angelina Jolie is hot?”; “would it be considered cheating if I fucked Brad Pitt while we were dating?” (this one I responded with – “Wow – well then since I believe reciprocity is key in a relationship then that must give me permission to make moves on Shannon Sossamon”)

    Just be playful. I don’t really take women’s words at face value, instead I take it as inuendo – learn to scan their interests behind what they say. When this comes up sometimes I’ll turn the tables and make statements to test their reactions.

    The ones that give me a chase are the ones that are interested – as well as aware of what they’re doing.

    • Marni

      Awesome brian! I knew you were one of my favorites.

      • Brian

        Women are too much fun to ignore their play games. I grew up playing games WITH them, not at them.

        I used to snatch phones out of their hands “I heard these explode if you send more than 100 texts within an hour” then put my number in and title it as “Call this number.”

        This is how most girls read interest from guys. Even if you end up in the ‘friend zone’ she’ll still recognize you as fun, playful, and comfortale enough in your skin that you can have a good time regardless of your mood.

        Marni’s newsletters just gave reinforcement to my perspectives. Listen to her, I’m successful about 90.7124832% of the time – she’s a smart girl (when she tells me I’m her favorite).

        • Joshua

          Weird…I usually just say something like…”why are you asking me that question, I want to make sure I give you an answer that directly addresses your interest” and of course I ask because I am wanting to understand her better…to get to the heart of the question and answer it directly….that said..I realize most women won’t want to give me an answer for that because of their insecurities and if that’s the case…then the woman is too insecure for me…..so now that I explain this..I realize I am using the turn the tables strategy and shit testing her back. lol

    • Neal G.

      Absolutely. Sometimes one of the best ways I’ve found to be playful /is/ to take obviously “trapping” questions at face value. The “is hot” question is really common, and you can just play along with it. “Oh, God, yes! I love her tattoos, and she moves like a lynx. What turns /you/ on most about her?” Now she’s the one being tested. :-)

      • Marni

        I have to agree with Neal. I feel that this post was not supposed to glorify women and shit tests but it was meant to enlighten others to realize both women and men have insecurities and that SHIT TESTING is not coming from a bad place. Rather it’s coming from a sad place. There are a lot of options out there and a lot of things happening around both and women that can feed into insecurities and as a partner, when in a relationship, sometimes we have to help curb insecurities.

        For those who are just meeting, the girl can be totally awesome but again may have some deep rooted insecurities based on past experiences with men. Because of this, if the girl is awesome in other areas, it would be nice for a strong man to be aware of reasons behind their possible shit tests to help calm her and let her realize he is one of the good ones.

        • Flash

          so when you say you agree with neal, does that mean you agree he should call the other girl hot and go on about her sex appeal?

      • Brian

        Of course, to make her comfortable relation is key – my experience with unicorn status women, though, they don’t like to relate that quickly. I’m not going to lie, I did that a long time ago but it didn’t work as well. Yes – absolutely, when it comes down to genuine conversation, the best approach IS to listen and relate, of course. I’ll agree with you on that. But since I’ve left that idea I have enough options that I focus in on true ladies who hold my attention. I’m trying to think of an example…. OH! Michael Douglas’ character in Fatal Attraction – the only man I can listen to for more than a half an hour.

    • Yorgos

      Wow! Great!

  • http://magarshak.com Greg

    When there’s a girl I really want to meet, sometimes I’d do something like:

    (start talking) e.g. “hey do you speak russian? … ok good, because we were just talking about you…”
    (compliment) e.g. “I like your dress, what is that called… very cute tonight!”
    (setup) e.g. “You’re trying to get me to buy you a drink, aren’t you … that depends, do you have a boyfriend?”

    there we go :)

    What do the wing girls think? “Mystery” would say I am displaying “too much interest” :-P

    • Marni

      Not too much interest as long as you are not overly available to her and still have comfort and confidence in yourself. It’s all about controlling your inner emotions. Calm, cool, collected and comfortable.

  • Max

    I really do want to make a point of understanding how this works?

    I really would like to know how far a drink would really get you anywhere especially in a Nightclub and all those lines on the net, forget it in a club you can’t hear yourself think!

    What I would recommend is a shit test of my own and that is to Look straight into the eyes of the girl and ask her point blank why she’s playing a GAME, throw the thing right back at her and watch the reaction. She will come around and if not walk away as she is a player pure and simple, honestly there are plenty of women out there. As you walk away just look and tell her and tell her what you think of her.

    Women make split second decisions about men, why can’t we??

    She wants an equal then so be it, but isn’t it a sad statement about so called “Beautiful and Intelligent” women playing these games that are better suited for the childrens playground!

    • Adam

      My problem with that is you’re way too affected with what other people are doing. If you are congruous, then there really should not be much that can be said that will faze you. Remember, you’re there to have your own life and enjoy it for your own benefit (and occasionally others around you). Who cares if someone else has a problem with you – that’s their problem!

      I’m a gentleman and I make no qualms about it. Take it or leave it.. I’m going to have fun either way.

      The article is great – I like the pointers and insights what she’s thinking. Thanks for the tips, Marni. Keep ‘em coming. For the record, I’m immediately suspicious of any woman who hates on you for spilling the beans. We all want great people in our lives, great orgasms, and a little lighthearted drama, right? ;-)

      • Marni

        Damn right!
        Thanks Adam

    • Ardiana the adventurer

      That’s true. It’s all a numbers game, eventually. If you say that to women and over 50% of the time women act positively on that or don’t give you a shit test you’ve got a working plan.
      When I get caught up in this Game of theirs I get very asexual and only start calculating all the possible outcomes in my head. It’s very exhilarating and gets my adrenaline flowing, but unfortunately puts me in a different wavelength for a while than the women that experience only the sexual tension. It’s like I can’t listen to two radio stations at a time. In order for me to control all of this I must be in my head, therefore I won’t get to react to the things that happen in my libido in time.
      ~AJ

  • Louis

    This article is dead on and I think you’re correct….people were only reading the first line. I was given a version of the shit test recently. While out I met a girl at the bar. After a while, I received a few IOIs (touch feely, laughs, compliments), but then she kept making references to other women at the bar, how pretty they were and why I wasn’t going out picking them up. It threw me off a little because I wasn’t sure if she was giving me a sign that she wanted to end the conversation. Next move was critical. So, I simply looked her dead in the eye and said, “Yea, there are a lot of pretty girls here tonight. But, why would I want to talk to them when I’m having such a good time getting to know you?” Then I grabbed her arm, and brought her out to dance. After that, she knew that night I was only interested in her, and her in me. Pick up wsa a success. But, the shit test can seriously throw you off if not properly handled.

    • Marni

      SUPER SEXY. You must have been rewarded quite well for that one ;)

      • Yorgos

        I’ll bet! :-0

  • Orit

    It’s important to note that women usually don’t TRY to conduct the “shit test.” It comes up naturally. Just like a man doesn’t TRY to do things that annoy women (like not calling the day after the date even though there is mutual interest). We are wired differently, and it’s a natural part of our male/female psyche.

    The “shit test” also shows up mostly during “pick-up” attempts and the real early stages of courtship. During face to face dates, the “shit test” may fade and “normal” conversation takes over. The more emotionally and intellectual mature men and women become (often through failed and successful relationships), the more the “shit test” becomes a fun, interesting, and enjoyable “game” rather than something to dread. Here’s another word for it: FLIRTATION.

    People who don’t want to “play” (in the positive sense) should start dating people of the same sex.

    • http://jfpbookworm.blogspot.com/ jfpbookworm

      Well, you can try *not* to conduct it, or you can get nowhere with me.

      How’s that for a shit test?

      • Neal G.

        …boring? You must be a ton of fun at parties. ;-)

        If you get a question like one of the ones above, you don’t know what’s behind it. Maybe the gal is really insecure, and you should move along. Maybe it’s a momentary slip. Maybe she’s teasing you to see how you respond to obvious trap questions. You don’t know until you respond; hostility isn’t going to get you anywhere good.

  • Orit

    Another way to look at it is like “casting.” There is a mutual audition going on. Men who view the “casting director” (i.e. the woman) with fear usually don’t get the part–they come across as inexperienced, grovelling novices. Men who know they can nail the audition and come in confident, ready to think on their toes (as in improv)–whether they give a stellar performance or not–impress the casting director either way. And once they are cast and the audition is over, they get into their roles, go out on real dates, and get to know each others weaknesses and strengths on a deeper level.

    Women need a leading man in their life. We want the men to do well and pass the “audition”, deep down we’re dying for it–so go get ‘em!

    • http://magarshak.com Greg

      well said!

    • Louis

      Yea, I agree with Greg. Very well said. And isn’t that true with people in general? Business relationships? Friendships? Confidence – to be who you are and put on your performance regardless of how you think people might react.

  • http://www.gettinginsideawoman.com/ Liz Leia

    I can’t comment until Marni buys me a drink. :)

    Orit, you have such great insight and thank you for sharing it! So happy to see another woman out there telling men what they actually need to know about attracting a woman (and you are gorgeous too!).

    When given the shit test, it’s important to remember that you don’t want to just comply with every little thing a woman throws at you like a lap dog. If your response to shit test #A is to say, “Oh, ok” and then buy her a drink, she will see that you are a total pushover and lose attraction. Showing interest is great, but bending to her every whim is not. This is why these witty responses work so well: they aren’t the “no” that will just trigger her insecurities, but they aren’t an automatic, overly-compliant yes.

    BTW, in my opinion, the reason why some of the “PUAs” out there tell you to just ignore shit tests is because they don’t know how else to handle them! Hm, maybe they should read this blog…:)

    • Todd

      Liz, I just wanted to say that I love your materials and I look forward to getting your newsletters. Would you ever consider offering that great discount again? I should have jumped on it when I had the chance.

      • http://www.gettinginsideawoman.com/ Liz Leia

        Thanks Todd!

        Hm…there might be a discount in the future if you ask nicely. :)

  • Todd

    Orit, thank you for this.

    What I think a lot of guys aren’t getting is that women don’t do this stuff to be mean, they do it because they’re women. As men we check out a woman’s boobs not because we’re shallow, but because it’s because we’re men. It’s in our nature. It’s our genes that are doing these things. One can no more call a woman childish for testing you than one can call a peahen a total bitch for checking out a peacock’s feathers.

    I would even posit that most women test men without even being aware of it. Could it be that if a man fails a woman’s test, she thinks he is saying that he’s just not into her?

    “Do you think she’s prettier than me?”
    “She’s cute, but she doesn’t have the adorable little brat thing going on.”

    I haven’t been getting any shit tests lately. That’s either really good, or really bad.

    • Marni

      Totally agree todd. Thank you for making that point.

      • Todd

        Thanks Marni.

        I’ve been fascinated lately with this idea of there being a secret sexual language. Most women probably get it, most men do not. You and Orit are talking about it, and some of the guys responding are not even reading the words you wrote. We can be pretty clueless! It’s just a matter of learning another language. A lot of people don’t even believe that such a language exists. As Carl Sagan said, it’s like explaining the concept of “up” to the residents of Flatland.

        One shit test that I think is awesome is “Men want sex way more than women do.” Translation: “I need your permission to be the sex-crazed animal that I really am, and I want to make sure you’re not going to judge me for it.”

        Why doesn’t a woman just come out and ask that? Because it just doesn’t transmit very well on that channel.

  • Neal G.

    Interesting insights! However, I have to say, I found this rather repellent:

    > A) Get what is due her as a desirable lady being courted by a man

    How many women do you think honestly believe that they’re “due” something for the pleasure of their company?

    We all—guys and gals—want to know that the person we’re flirting with finds us attractive, isn’t a nasty person, and will seek to understand them. I don’t understand a sense of entitlement, though.

    I don’t offer to buy people I’ve just met unreciprocated drinks. At best, it’s a crappy attempt to create a feeling of obligation; at worst, I’m being used as a vending machine. I’ll happily /share/ whatever I’m drinking with someone that I think is cute (that’s a lot more fun anyway :-) ).

    If someone tried to pull the “buy me a drink if you want me to talk to you” line, though, I’d assume they were seeing if I’m a pushover, and I’d respond with something (hopefully) witty and brassy (e.g., demanding they buy me a drink too, asking what I get for a drink). Anyone who gets offended, who really thinks I need to pay to talk to them, isn’t someone I want to talk to anyway.

    • Orit

      There are certain rituals in courtships that feminism has tried to shake off but they remain rituals attuned to the nature of men and women–and they work. Buying a woman a drink (when there is mutual attraction), is a nice ritual. A man paying for the first date–beautiful! Then when they spend more time together they can discuss the “rituals” and re-adjust. I’ve date men who didn’t abide by the rituals and ultimately, for the most part, they weren’t there for me when it really mattered. It’s not an “obligation” but a sign of respect, no matter what age we live in.

      • Neal G.

        If something like buying a woman a drink or paying for a first date is a sign of respect to her, what rituals do you feel a woman should engage in to show respect to a man?

        • Orit

          Good question!

          BTW, went out on blind date yesterday for coffee. He didn’t buy my coffee! Immediate turn-off. Broadcasts cheap and un-chivalrous and clueless about male-female dynamics. Even if you don’t like the woman after the first five seconds–buy her a coffee! It’s a code of chivalry–and me likey! Why chivalry works is the subject of a research paper.

          • Mark

            Good question indeed, Orit and nice side step.

            Now how does the woman show the man some respect?

            BTW Marni, thanks for a fantastic article that really gives an insight into the female POV, brilliant stuff. I’m sure the lass who said “don’t give our secrets away” was light hearted about it.

            Orit this doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. Or if you’re stumped Marni or one of the other girls can answer. Otherwise perhaps respect is a one way street.

            PS men, can you refrain from jumping in with an answer please? I want to hear the girls’ POV on this one.

            Hope you all have a great day!

          • Marni

            Mark,

            Great question. Women show the same respect by using the same tactic that is requested in this article, EMOTIONAL CONTROL. It’s about staying calm and not taking direct offense when your partner or person you are dating is having a weak moment. As a little insight, and a repeat of what I say throughout my materials, is that women want to be women and men want to be men. When women feel their most feminine around a man, they are the most attracted and vice versa.

  • Ricky

    I’ve run into a few of these myself and I can usually pick up on if the particular woman is being serious or not. More often than not they’re just messing around, but if they’re not, I don’t make light of it. I see it as all in fun, you can either handle the engineered awkwardness or not. On more than one occasion I’ve gone into absent mindedly answering a woman and have had some variation of the “I feel fat in this? Do I look fat?” and being distracted I’ve answered “Well no, not that fat” which has caused an awkward moment or two. Usually I snap back to attention and admit I was distracted..or with my current girlfriend she does it to snap me back to attention lol. so we usually have fun (banter back and forth )with it as well as anything else off the wall I tend say while distracted.

  • Marni

    I am sending a post on behalf of Jordan Harbinger from pick up podcast (which is awesome by the way)

    Argh, just lost a huge amount of text regarding this subject that I’d adapted from the PickUp Podcast blog (found here: http://www.pickuppodcast.com), but here’s the short version: Essentially what people here are missing so far is that these tests are 1) subconscious from the woman and 2) a sign of INTEREST. When you’re being tested by a woman, it’s because she is responding to attraction sparked within her. This attraction can be the result of your looks or other factors, but the fact of the matter is, if she wasn’t attracted, she’d have no reason to test you. Guys, get used to this, because your girlfriend and wife will do this until the day you die. The good news is, this is a natural screening mechanism that women have, and it’s in their best interest (otherwise they’d be bedding the other 10,000 guys who have approached them). Once you can handle this as a man, you’ll be able to amplify the attraction women feel for you. In other words, these tests are an opportunity to separate yourself from the throngs of guys that don’t pass muster. Last but not least, ENJOY it! At the end of the day, these tests are a signal that she’s attracted to you. Be flattered! :) -Jordan PickUp Podcast & The Art of Charm http://www.pickuppodcast.com
    —–

  • Greg

    I’ve got a question for the wing girls.

    It seems the more in demand you are, the more of an asshole you can be to others. I’ve asked out lots and lots of pretty girls and I was surprised to learn that they ALL did the same thing. Why do they do it?

    Basically, I am honest and straightforward that I find them cute, and would like to take them out on a date. As soon as I display any interest in them, they start totally leading me on. This goes on for about a week. It’s typical… so typical, in fact, that I started to think there’s something about me that pushes these girls away. Except all the other girls, who are not in the top 99th percentile of looks, act NORMALLY.

    My “problem” is that I am only interested in tall, very beautiful girls. Many of them appear very enthusiastic and give me their number. And then INVARIABLY almost every single one starts leading me on without actually meeting up. Whenever she talks to me, she insists she is interested in meeting, but then comes up with all sorts of excuses why she’s busy. Many of them barely answer.

    Typical example: Friday on a bus stop, girl locks eyes with me, definitely interested in me. I like her too, we exchange numbers — she works for a TV station. I call on Sunday. She says she is at WORK (?). I say cool, should I call you tonight? She goes “definitely”. I call her that night, she doesn’t pick up. Text her – no response. Two days later I text “Serena, how about a drink next week? I hope giving me your number wasn’t a waste..” she replies right away “no, it wasn’t a waste! We should definitely get together!” … then I text her, excuses. A couple days later I call her, leave a voicemail, never calls back.

    I mean, it’s so simple to pick up the phone and say “hey, sorry, I’m just not interested… I’m sorry to have led you on.” Simple. But they never so much as call me back, even if I specifically text them “look, if you’re not interested, I’d appreciate it if you let me know”. It’s like all the beautiful girls in new york are playing by the same rulebook. By contrast, every normal (not in top 2% of looks) girl behaves NORMALLY and treats me like a fellow human being after I get her number.

    I should also mention:
    * I am a 26 year old guy
    * I meet really good looking girls in NYC
    * I am very tall and relatively good looking myself … I have the confidence to come up to her where most guys would not, and express interest and ask her out.

    It just doesn’t make sense. It’s not like she’s holding out for a BETTER guy. If she’s *single*, she has no reason NOT to go out with me. And even if she had a reason, she could just value my time and call me back out of human decency. Yet she gives me her number and then delights in not calling me back.

    Why do they punish guys who boldly display interest in them, by leading those guys on? Why? :P

    And then, why do they complain that guys don’t treat them right… isn’t that a bit hypocritical? :)

    • od

      dude u need to learn the art of the con.
      she just using u to inflate her ego…. she being a flake. she probably single and not attached too
      i noticed that seem very polite and cordial….that so 17th century…
      u should probably show more dominance on the 1st encounter man..or just delete her number and on to next chick

      • http://magarshak.com Greg

        Yeah I actually just found a scientific basis for what I keep seeing over and over:

        http://www.welmer.org/2009/07/06/study-treating-some-women-well-causes-negative-response/

        Read that: treating attractive women nicely can cause negative response. Makes sense .. as soon as you are interested, she can take you or leave you. I am still at a loss then, about how to meet an attractive woman I have never seen before and will never see again…. arrange a date … all without showing interest!

        Interest works … because they can’t say no… but then they realize later “that guy wanted me. That’s no challenge at all. Why should I even waste my time? Every guy wants me!”

        • Marni

          whoa whoa whoa!! I think I spotted your problem. You misinterpreted what that guy was saying in his article. There is a huge difference between being nice and being a wimp. Wimpy guys get shit on by women because frankly they make it easy. As a woman I find it annoying when is a wimp and you can walk all over him because ultimately you do.

          Women want nice men, who respect themselves, have boundaries and don’t allow ANYONE, not just women, to walk all over them.

          • Orit

            Additionally, you could be smothering these pretty ladies. When you aggressively pursue a woman, you put on her pressure. You’re already broadcasting: you’re so hot therefore I want to go out with you. Keep it a little more casual. Acknowledge that she’s cute and that you want to get to know her–not “score” a date with her. Women–and probably men too–don’t like to feel pressured.

            Also–how about trying to go after the non-hotties? What a concept!

            Don’t be like a dog, going up to her and wagging her tail and begging to play. Be more like a cat, approach gracefully and calmly, rubbing your head on her chin for brief moments and purring.

          • http://magarshak.com Greg

            Maybe the niceness study wasn’t really appropriate to quote here. The phenomenon I’m describing has nothing to do with niceness. It has to do with the fact that I meet them without any context, and express interest too early — whether I say let’s grab coffee, or let’s see a movie in Bryant park, etc. The reason is they are cute and I would like to get to know them.

            These girls are desired all around and they know it. That’s why several days later they can barely remember who I am, much less want to go on a date with me. They try to get rid of my calls, but don’t have the guts to just say straight out they made a mistake and aren’t interested.

            I am no wimp. I have the balls to come up to attractive women, and express my interest with panache and social intelligence. I am not bad looking or unattractive. I am just painfully aware that showing interest to a really beautiful woman too soon in a random situation kills your chances 9 out of 10 times.

            Out of all my approaches, a general pattern emerges:
            * girls who are in the top 2% of looks, almost invariably lead me on with fake promises of getting together, they play phone games, come up with excuses, etc.
            * everyone else acts normally … e.g. if they are busy they don’t pick up, then they call me back.

            To wit, I’ve probably done this 100 times by now. Obviously my sample is skewed towards NYC girls under 25 and tall beautiful ones at that. But the results don’t lie. Almost every single attractive girl who gives me her number acts this way, and every other girl acts normally.

            Basically what I don’t understand is:
            Clearly being honest and showing interest doesn’t work for me with these girls, no matter how charming I am. So how am I supposed to get these tall beautiful girls without showing interest? I can think of only one way … and that is get a profession like bartender, model photographer, director, etc. … because clearly cold approaching and showing interest –regardless of how it’s done –results in a useless phone number and a forgettable impression.

          • Marni

            Greg, I totally understand your frustration because I hear it and fix it every day with my clients. If you want to work together one on one we can make a few small tweaks on your approach and get those hot girls you are going after. Trust me they will not be faking anything when I through with you. Just send me an email to marni@winggirlmethod.com.

          • Brian

            It’s developed character – not rehearsed lines. Confidence is contagious, and so is not having confidence. I’m going to slap you with my dick if you use anything like, “you look like my next girlfriend”. That’s a NO no

            I’m retiring from this blog

          • Yorgos

            Doormats are uncool. You must let people know, by your actions or attitude you will both give and demand respect, that’s it.

          • Flash

            I’m not sure you spotted his problem. Its a common one. How can she possibly think he is a wimp at this stage of the game? They haven’t had a conversation yet outside of the initial meet. She didnt think he was a wimp at that point because she gave him the number.

            The only possible way to prove he isnt a wimp between the first meet and the first date – is by not asking a second time if she turns him down. But this is a chicken/egg scenario – Supposedly the only reason she turned him down is because he is a wimp. But we havent established that yet – not until after he starts asking multiple times…..which has no bearing on the fact that she said no the first time…..can you see the circular argument here?

        • dave310

          Greg, I don’t know your situation, but I think you need to work on creating a real connection with these women, not just saying hello and going for the phone number right away. Make sure to create a moment so she will remember you when you call her for the date. (David Wygant talks about this a lot, creating that Hugh Grant romantic comedy moment…become a story that she’ll tell her friends.) It’s important to find some similar interests to talk about early on, not just surface stuff…maybe give her a cute nickname that has something to do with the interaction you had with her. If you have a nice 10 or 15 minute chat that includes her favorite bands or some artists she likes then you can call and invite her to see one of those bands or to an art museum that’s featuring one of those artist…or an artist you think she’d like.

          The point is to make it personel, so she knows you were listening and you’re intrested in more than her looks. Even if you’re not. That’s my two cents, mostly borrowed advice from Mr. Wygant.

          • Marni

            I completely agree with this advice. The undertone of this comment is that you must take the lead to make an experience for HER and for YOU.

    • Orit

      Why the obsession with tall, beautiful girls? Maybe you need to try dating other kinds of women who may not be model-esque but who respond to you because of all the great qualities you have.

    • Ardiana the adventurer

      Hot women give more of a tough time because they are used to guys like you swarming around them. An average woman has maybe 4-5 guys “on hold” that they can go out with anytime. A hot woman has over 100. You need to do something extraordinary in order to stand out. in other words you need more masculine “firepower”.

      In the Serena case you called: 3 times, texted: 3 times and left a voicemail. NOOB ALERT! WAY too needy for busy, attractive man with options. Even I’d get pissed at that and I’m a guy.

      One thing that stands out in what you say is you’re kind of nice. Try getting more “bad boy edge”. You’re asking her too much when you should call. Just say when you’re gonna call and let her either accept it or not. You can try another hot woman if it doesn’t work. Remember youre a hot, high-value guy that can get “any girl” any time. Bust her balls as often as possible. Those are the only things I think you lack. It’s not you at fault, just that you act in a way that a lot of wussy guys tend to act too, and the women want to protect themselves from those.
      Read romace novels and learn how the guy starts out with the main character. They always hate each other, with passion. The niceness comes later.

      ~AJ

  • od

    i normally wont take advice from women about women…but i likey
    thmm.. the shit test… it not designed to find the right man.. unless its the man for the night.huh…u with so far
    it’s sure test for qualities that any confident self assured man would have. he may not be a good man but hey woman have high pain thresh hold …………the purpose is to mate,,plain and simple…woman fall in love …men get laid simple… women play games guys and love is a game but so is war. so stop bitching like a girl and just accept what MARNI has to say. i mena who cares about why they give shit test…we should learn to get around it..why becasue we wanna get laid.
    hey i wonder i some one can write a romance novel from a the male perspective for once

    • Marni

      They do. It’s called Hustler :)

    • Brian

      She’s testing you, go in for the kill

  • Mike

    Marni – this is awesome. You mean to tell me that Orit is just the first of 20 or so women to give us her take on reality. Her hopes and fears, her true desires to be with a guy and in the broader picture to get us together with women… sweet!
    Orit – thanks for taking the time to put words to print. I appreciate your ability to turn a phrase and the courage to let the whole world read it.

    I was particularly intrigued by your belief that the shit test is the opportunity to raise her up. I have failed these tests miserably and passed others with flying colors. I’d say that it really depended on how interested I was and how good our chemistry was. But I have always felt the pressure of the test. The more experience I get the less I worry about anything my date has to say that is negative or ‘testy’. The fact of my reality these days is that it is a fantastic place to be and its a privilege to be invited in. Women are noticing and approaching me. Takes a lot of work out of the whole “should I go talk to her” thing.

    The real insight for me in what you said is that there is an opportunity to make a connection because you or the general ‘her’ is asking to be heard. That lets me put a completely different frame on things. Instead of me being tested its simply me listening to another human being and responding as i see fit. If it goes to the next level then great! If not thats ok too – I learned something because I listened and hopefully you did too by risking enough to make the request and catching whatever response I managed to come up with.

    Can’t wait to see what comes next on this blog!

  • Eric

    Her: So you’re quite the player, aren’t you?
    Me: Well of course! And we have to hurry because my other date is on her way….lol.

    I hear some of the guys on this blog bitching and complaining about women testing them but actually when a women tests a man it helps you GROW AS A MAN! If you can deal with women I trutly believe you can deal with anything in life. When a women test you play with it! Have fun…it really does mean she likes you. I have approached 200 plus women and trust me when I say they LOVE it when you passed their test. If you can pass women’s test you will have more women in your life that you can handle. Here’s a classic test women give say to men.

    Her: I have a boyfriend.
    Most guys give me or they get mad. This is what I say and do.
    Me: OMG we just met and you are already thinking of me as a potential mate! Slow down you are moving too fast for me.

    If you aren’t out approaching women then you won’t and never will trutly understand why women test men. So guys get your ass out there and start talking to women. Hire Marni, buy her material, whatever you have to do.
    Also read a book called THE WAY OF THE SUPERIOR MAN by david deida he talks about how women will TEST YOU UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE EVEN WHEN YOU’RE MARRIED!

    • http://www.mikeseroveyenterprises.com Mike S

      I was married for almost 11 years. My ex would occasionally test me with, “What do you think of her?” If I said that she had some fault she would say that I was too picky. If I said that she was pretty then my ex would say, “You don’t say that about me!” There was no correct answer to that question! She would also test me with temper tantrums, undermining my authority with my own kids, and withholding sex. There really can be a thing as too much testing!

  • Matt

    Really enjoyed the article. In years past I completely missed or screwed up these tests, thankfully now I just enjoy them. At the very least it makes for a more entertaining conversation. I think its not about having the perfect response but being confident enough in yourself to not let any of these tests faze you.

  • Michael

    I want to thank Orit for giving it to us guys straight. Here’s a thought we guys have to realize:

    Everyone has their price, but no one is making you pay.

    If she really ‘can’t talk with a man until he buys her a drink’ and you are against that, you can (and better) walk away.

    What, would we prefer that she give us the advice that women usually give men about dating?

  • Michael

    I will return the favor and give a little secret about men. We men NEED to be tested to stay attracted. I will tell you a story from my own past:

    I dated a girl for 2 years. And during that time, she never said no to me sexually! Great thing, huh? Nope. I even found myself feeling a little resentful that she didn’t ever say no. It so would have turned me on for her to say something like “You want me? Then you’re going to have to catch me, carry me to the bedroom and rip off my clothes yourself!” It would have really made me feel masculine.

    But she never did. Yeah, I suppose that I could have ‘communicated honestly’ and told her, but isn’t that kind of like telling your friend to throw you a surprise party? Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn’t it.

    Women need to be a little careful about taking ‘men’s advice’. We’ll tell you how much we hate drama and want you to be straightforward and low-maintenance. But if you take this too far, you’ll become a buddy. We’ll appreciate you, but you could end up becoming the friend we talk to about all those girls we’re pining after who keep ‘saying one thing and doing something else’.

    • Ardiana the adventurer

      Are you kidding me, that is ¤%&# perfect! You got an actual real girlfriend without the crap! I’ve never read of anything like this. Pardon me for saying but that kind of defyes woman’s logic: unless you’re some kind of Casanova by nature, she shouldn’t be turned on that much by you according to what the pickup advice says. Are you sure she didn’t have some “issues” and just settled? Thats is really rare, kudos to you man… :)

  • EasyEC

    Great post. I think I’ve been shit tested by every girl I’ve dated. I also think the various flirting moves girls do–showing off cleavage mid-conversation, inadvertent physical touches, various poses–can be shit tests of sorts to see how easily manipulable a guy is. Even if “tests” aren’t done on purpose, the girl can still judge the guy’s reactions and get the same information as she could have from conscious tests.

    I think another way to counter is for the guy to respond to the girl with his own tests. Tester is a role and when the roles are switched, women seem to ordinarily respond to guy tests by the PUA concept of qualifying (e.g. Guy challenges girl’s adventurousness. She qualifies her adventurousness) if they find him attractive. Ironically, this is thought of as one of the worst ways for guys to respond to tests (e.g. Girl challenges guy to first buy her a drink. He does so without resistance).

  • Steve

    Orit, I enjoyed your article. It’s regrettable that the comments tended to drag the whole thing down.

    But listen, you’re a good writer, you have a really nice style, and I enjoy your frankness and your fresh perspective.

    I would encourage you to keep writing articles. I don’t agree with all of your ideas but it’s interesting to read your side of the coin because it’s so different.

    You had a couple of nice comments too. You do have writing talent, so please keep it up.

    From my own point of view, as an older guy (tending to interact with women 20 or 30 years younger), shit tests are just a part of life if you’re involved in any way with dating or relationships. As a man you have to learn how to deal with them.

    In the pickup community there are about half a dozen standard ways, but the way I always prefer is the witty riposte, because then you get into this kind of playful fencing match of wit and it can be pretty fun and stimulating mentally, emotionally… and maybe other ways too, but I don’t want you thinking about that.

    By the way, intelligence in a woman is incredibly sexy. Speaking as a man, a woman can often completely bowl me over with intelligence, creativity, and a forward-thinking mind.

    One of the strangest experiences I ever had was when I was at a wine tasting, and I went up and started talking to this very attractive woman — primarily because I was afraid of attractive women at that time, so I was sort of pushing myself. The strangest thing happened. After about 5 or 10 minutes, and she began to say things that identified her as a very literary type — she later told me that she had been a writing teacher — but I was enamored with the breadth and creativity of her mind (I’m not saying she was a genius but she was quite bright), that my attraction for her based on her mind actually was greater than the attraction I felt for her based on her looks. I don’t know if I’m saying that right. In other words, I actually no longer cared what she looked like. And she was quite attractive. But it no longer mattered. I really liked her mind and personality, and that attraction simply took over, and the other just receded. This was a woman I could see growing old with — and as you get older, that becomes important, because you are aware of how fickle Nature is with your looks, no matter how good you look when you’re young.

    Anyway… there’s one man’s view.

    Keep it up, orit — I want to read more from you.

    Steve

    • Orit

      Thanks, Steve. You should know as a woman how much we like sincere compliments, as well as the affirmation that our intellect matters!

  • Jose Two Times

    [Her] “Hey, silly boy, do you think she’s prettier than me?”

    [Moi] “Aww maaan fuddruckers, she’s cute, but she doesn’t have that en-rapturous li’l bratty thing going on like you do Silly. So, I reckon she won’t be getting any spankings tonight…from one such as me.” [insert elongated pause here... for impactual-effect] And then…”btw sweetie, c’mere you…come closer…closer…uh-huh yeah there…(==========> leans in…and intones in Argentinean ‘n Italian vocalized-inflections… ] signorina-chiquitita, have I told you yet that– the li’l curls in your hair…are strikingly stunning?!” [snip]

    Jose Two Times — I’m gonna get the papers. Get the papers.

  • Tim H.

    I never buy a girl I don’t already know a drink.

    I’ll buy you a drink, depending on how good of a kisser you are ;) .

    or, a girl I knew was working as a shot girl at a club. I was already getting free drinks and was drunk enough.

    her: wanna buy a shot?

    me: no, but thanks for asking. Do you wanna buy me a shot? :)

    what do ya think?

  • Jose Two Times

    [Her] “Hey, silly boy, do you think she’s prettier than me?”

    [Moi] “Aww maaan fuddruckers, she’s cute, but she doesn’t have that en-rapturous li’l bratty thing going on like you do Silly. So, I reckon she won’t be getting any spankings tonight…from one such as me.” [insert elongated pause here... for impactual-effect] And then…”btw sweetie, c’mere you…come closer…closer…uh-huh yeah there…(==========> leans in…and intones in an Argentinean ‘n Italian vocalized-inflection… ] signorina-chiquitita, have I told you yet that– the li’l curls in your hair…are strikingly stunning?!” [snip]

    Jose Two Times — I’m gonna get the papers. Get the papers.

  • Pingback: Nice guy fails a few simple tests by woman.()

  • A Good Guy

    I have to say this is pretty disheartening to hear. These type of games disgust me. It’s also hard for me to sympathize with you saying women are insecure when conversing with a guy. The guy came up to you, he’s interested.

    I might add, some of these things in the shit test you mention would potentially detour that charming wonderful guy from wanting to be with you. Saying you “only talk to guys who buy you drinks” sets you up as a bitch who is just trying to use the man for nothing but your own gain. Even mentioning you are “thirsty” to a guy should be enough to get him to buy you a drink, if he is a gentlemen. If not, don’t bother. Something you should also consider is all the accusations you mentioned are also possible turn offs. Trying to compare us to the bartender, I would think “Is this women going to compare herself to every woman we meet?” guys like confidence in women, and don’t like it when women fish for compliments. Scrutinizing a man’s intelligence is a surefire way to get on their bad side, if they are stupid they might not notice, but if you are looking for a smart guy, he won’t take this as flirting, but more as an insult. I understand the need to have barriers when meeting people, and not wanting to get hurt. Men don’t want to get hurt either. But doing things like this will only stray away from genuine men. Lets play, but please play nicely. Remember it takes a lot for a guy to approach a woman, you have the advantage in the situation, so be kind.

  • Maximillian

    I have my doubts about the concept of female “PUA”. First off, women are chiefly an emotional sort. The logical approach of most Pick Up Artistry simply clashes with their sentimental approach. It’ll be like a man using logic in a fight, they go in with a plan and the next thing they know they’re flinging haymakers. Women go in with their ideas and the next thing they know they’re lost in his flirtatious mind games. Good men are leaders. That means by definition any ploy a woman might have would be relatively useless, unless it was a tag along game (which of course women are naturally equipped with instinctively, i.e. shit tests) Simply put, if a woman is logical enough to figure out game – it’d be a real shame, and highly doubtful, that she’d have a problem finding her ideal guy.

    • Marni

      Interesting post. You are not the first to doubt a females ability to relay helpful advice to men on attracting women. I have to let you know that the women of WGM are like other women but with one extra ability. The ability to articulate and recognize attraction. We are not fools and understand that women operate on interesting levels. Strong women will fall to the feet of pick up artists and we know why. We get it and we can explain it.

      If you have any specific questions let us know.

  • Grant

    If a (fatherless) gf says things like,

    ‘I want to shop around (for other guys)’
    ‘It’s one day at a time’
    ‘You never know what’s going to happen in the future’

    What insecurities are behind them, if they are tests?

  • Scott

    This is great stuff.

    Ok, if a girl mentions a boyfriend in my presence, I’m done with my pursuit. Maybe it’s a shit test, maybe it’s not. I don’t care. That’s too much testing if it is in fact testing. Why would I want to date a girl who’s testing that hard right off the bat?

    I have had my heart ripped out of my chest with rejection a few times by trying to date women who were either (I now suspect) dating and sleeping with a boyfriend or just getting over a recent ex-boyfriend. These women are bad news. They will allow you to pursue them, make you feel rejection, and all the while never tell you the real story…that they have strong feelings for another man.

    Besides, if she mentions a boyfriend when you meet her, is that not female code for “I’m just not that into you”???? Or perhaps, she really does have a boyfriend! Don’t give her the ego boost she hasn’t earned by continuing to pursue her.

    • Ardiana the adventurer

      The thing is some women have this imaginary boyfriend they make up to see if you can step up to the plate. Whether the boyfriend is real or not makes no difference. A pickup guru once said: if you cause attraction in her, she will forget him in about 2,3 seconds.
      A few tips are: never mention him by name, only refer to him as “that guy”, don’t show anger, instead belittle him by things like “you’re with me now, I’ll make you much happier”. For energy to do this, Imagine the look on the other guy’s face if it is a real guy when you stole his %&¤# girl!

  • Tommy

    Women are shit, this is the problem in society today….they have all this inflated sense of themselves and can’t help but play games, they get a guy who is decent and treats them decently and then leaves for some guy who wants to have a threesome on their fucking honeymoon….my message to women…grow the fuck up and stop being douchebags

    • Yorgos

      Tommy, I can understand why you say that. There is much to learn and you won’t do it by being bitter. Start with a clean slate and remember there are a few good ones out there. Remember compliance equals consent, know your limits and tell her to straighten up, or get up and walk away,and don’t look back. Allways have several women lined up until you find that one.
      You can do it! :-)

  • james

    i Love women but my happiness came after my marriage in loving myself and doing things for myself like learning my grandfathers instrument (guitar) i am still learning and pursuing a degree in history also so i can work in a museum yes i would like to find a passionate woman who shares my interests however i speak my mind and demand the utmost honest upfront in a woman i do not play games

  • David

    I have one shit test for girls: When the check comes, does she reach for her purse? Don’t worry, I’m paying and I’m not bitching about that part. But it would be nice to at least acknowledge that we could easily spend $400 per month on dinners and drinks if we go out once a week.

    But if a girl does pass my shit test….. Well, it’s only happened once or twice so I don’t even know what I would do.

    Yup, I’m bitter.

    • Marni

      I think this is a great test and I have actually talked about this many times before in both my newsletters and on my blog. BUT this may not necessarily mean that she is a gold digger or of bad character, it may mean she was brought up differently. It may be in her experience that it is rude to offer to pay on a first date with a man. Again, all tests are great but they don’t have to be deal breakers.

  • Felix Barbossa

    Tell me if this is a good line to handle any shit test?

    “Get off your pedestal or stop shitting on it. :)

  • Jean-Paul Dorst

    I am 60 years old and I am dating women in my age range as well as women who are 20 to 30 years younger. Those women who are around my age or may be 10 years younger do not use the shit test with me. Typically they stay with me for up to 6 months. Then they leave me for good with the reason that I am too busy with my career and do not spend enough time with them. The ones who are much younger always use the shit test which I only passed once with a Chinese girl who actually was my girlfriend for 5 years before she moved to Vancouver. I am also usually more succesful with women who are French speaking. This could be because I feel more at home in French which is one of my mother tongues in addition to German. I am living in a Canadian province where only 6 % of the population speak French. How can I get the same results with the majority of English speaking Canadian women where I live? And why do only younger women apply the shit test? I am clueless!

  • anthony

    A) I was about to get you a drink, but I didn’t want you to think I wanted to get you drunk
    B) She’s okay (then look at her like with desire), but you’re the hottest girl here (watch her blush)
    C) Of course I’m a player, just looking for the right woman to reform me (wink)
    D) What can I say, I’m no match for your wit, but I can drive a pretty fast Ferrari, can you?

    These are suggested answers given to their respective questions. And here is somethings women will reply in return.

    A) I just had one tonight. (You will then feel obligated to buy her a drink since you suggested you didn’t buy her one in the first place because you were worried whe was going to get drunk)
    B)Thank you. (She is obligated to say something like this, but she doesn’t really mean it since every other guy every night at every bar has said the same thing as that)
    C) I kinda like the idea here, but without the word player and a cheesy wink. Who winks?
    D)Why whould i respond like that way if i don’t drive a Farrir?

    I think what the author was going for was to demonstrate how men and women think and how and why we play games. I love this. What the author missed was the actual real life interaction men and women have with words. An understanding is great. The next step is to actually have the words that make up the interaction which lead to communication of ideas and beleifs and all that is great and wonderful in a relationship. Lets look at some better examples of what the guy could have said:

    A) You) I don’t even know you. Let’s start with a name. You are?
    She answers
    You) Well ____ Why should I buy you a drink and not all the other women around here?
    B)Who her? Yeh she seems nice. (then move expressing that it was weird for her to ask)
    C)I’m social.
    D)Your cute. You remind me of my little cousin. Always being a wise ass.

    • Garrett

      “A) You) I don’t even know you. Let’s start with a name. You are?She answers
      You) Well ____ Why should I buy you a drink and not all the other women around here?
      B)Who her? Yeh she seems nice. (then move expressing that it was weird for her to ask)
      C)I’m social.
      D)Your cute. You remind me of my little cousin. Always being a wise ass.”

      Those are really good answers.

  • sangos

    Well actually I find shit testing the best way to kick start and power a conversation opener. Its not a bad or sad thing really. After we are are all scared when it comes to dating/mating. AND these convos tell a lot in very little, about the other person.

    Ex. ME: Where do you stay?

    GAL: in ………(regular answer) , and you?( curious …she digs me! good going…)

    ME: in a 2 mile radius from you( playful tone)…so which street in ……..( more serious now; am interested too)

    GAL: (clearly annoyed tone) @#$%^&*()..lat 34′ and long 65.6′ E…..

    ME: (to myself : OWOWOPS.. shut the fu*k up. Houston we have a problem!)

    Game over. NEXT!!!!

    Note: Well I never approached this girl again based on this 20 seconds convo. Actually this girl is a co-worker for the last over a year. And BINGO did I see a better real big time insecure bi*ch! Whew dodged a smoking hot bullet…Btw she’s approached me a few times later!…but babe sorry I dont want you to drive my car…its instinctive rejection from me…cant help it.

  • http://www.howtoattractwomenhelp.com/ Noah from attract women help

    I have to say it, I’ve found so much knowledge and wisdome in this article than i could find in three books.
    Thanks so much, i’ve benifited a lot.
    what you’ve said about how to “Confirm your attraction to her above others” appealed to me a lot, you can’t imagine how many guys try to hide their attraction as if it is something to be ashamed of.
    I have bookmarked your article to make it available for other guys and i’ve written a blog post about it too.
    http://digg.com/news/lifestyle/how_women_use_the_shit_test

    http://howtoattractwomenhelp.blogspot.com/2010/11/how-women-use-shit-test.html

  • http://kamasutraworld.net Bruce

    Yes, indeed. Insight is a dangerous thing. I’ve heard EXACTLY these phrases from my current one only… tests of the third degree.! In my case, special as it may be, my compadres go through the same tests. Most of the time, “WE” men fail because we don’t understand the background issues; thus responding in ways that don’t pass the test.
    My advice, step back one brief moment and then, be your true and honest self… with a hint of humour ~ and a LOT of Jedi mind. BE the male polarity & let her know that you not only understand her, but that you are with her. The ‘test’ is not about your masculinity… it is about how you handle her testing.

    • Marni

      LOVE IT BRUCE!!! Exactly. You get it.

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    I’d come to give blessing with you on this. Which is not something I usually do! I enjoy reading a post that will make people think. Also, thanks for allowing me to speak my mind!

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  • blogster

    Interesting article and yes have experienced this enough to understand why it occurs. Just one question but – why is it deemed acceptable for women to actively act out their insecurities and men are required to ‘work with it’, whereas on the other hand, if a man demonstrates the slightest insecurity, he’s deemed weak and unfit? I’ve seen this too often, where the slightest wrong move get’s the man discarded.

    • Marni

      Whose saying it’s acceptable :-)

      Trust me, I wish women, my self included, could handle these situations better. But I’m not here to tell you how women SHOULD BE, I’m telling you how they are so that you can be prepared.

      Just like any other human, we women are going to screw up from time to time. During those screw up times, it’s nice to know that there is an emotionally strong man to support our irrational bursts of insecurity.

      Help her, don’t hate her!

  • blogster

    who said anything about hating women Marni? Might need to clean those eyes out ;)

    What I’m saying is: in effect the advice is, ‘women are insecure, you need you to work with it, but if you respond insecurely in return, we’ll mark you down for it…’ – hypocritical, no?

    As i said, i get the concept of testing and why women do it. I’ve experienced it a lot like all men, and I’ve done OK responding. I’ve had the following:
    * with last girlfriend – she was waiting for me outside my office at the end of the day. I exit the office block with female colleague (Friend). Girlfriend says to me, “she’s really beautiful isn’t she?”
    * last girl i casually dated when I called her up “why are you calling me?!?”
    * same girl, completely out of the blue one day – “you know sometimes you’re a real jerk!”

    I understood in each situation why they were doing it and where they were coming from. I get women want to be understood and appreciated.

    In dating and relationships I’ve found what really helps is to be really in tune with the dynamics between you and the situation you’re in – this helps to see where a women might be coming from when she chucks a little tantrum or gets angry out of the blue.

    To take you up on your argument however, yours and other dating sites, by stating that men need to ‘work with’ female insecurities, you ARE tacitly making it ACCEPTABLE. It simply reinforces it.

    I understand you when you say the site is designed to prepare men for how women are, but by saying things along the lines of, “I wish we females didn’t do this” completely removes any personal responsibility from how you behave – females can choose how they communicate their issues just as men can choose how to respond (which is what your website is doing for men, correct?) – and reinforces a theme seen in so much dating advice (not just male exclusive advice).

    The overwhelming slant of dating advice these days is based on the man adapting his behaviour to respond to the woman, with little movement from the other side – in effect, “women are like this, this is how you have to change your behaviour to respond”. There is very little emphasis on how women might need to alter their behaviour.

    This is not based on negativity or bad personal experiences, just evaluating what I have observed.

    • Ardiana the adventurer

      “To take you up on your argument however, yours and other dating sites, by stating that men need to ‘work with’ female insecurities, you ARE tacitly making it ACCEPTABLE. It simply reinforces it.”
      Actually men could get away with more than women, look at all the nasty stuff bad boys do and still have women oodling after them. It’s in womens nature to demand responses like that. It doesn’t get men & women together though, but it’s just how things are. It’s a stupid system, I wish someday I’ll get to encounter God about this and rant him why he made it the way it is.

      “The overwhelming slant of dating advice these days is based on the man adapting his behaviour to respond to the woman, with little movement from the other side – in effect, “women are like this, this is how you have to change your behaviour to respond”. There is very little emphasis on how women might need to alter their behaviour.”
      Well there are some things like “how to count to 10 when you’re about to start a fight with your husband” or “how to not belittle his ability as a provider” sort of things. But those are for extreme situations: married women whose relationship is about to break apart. Nothing preventative like men have to learn.
      ~AJ

  • Tony

    Well i could only get half way thru that , before it started to strain the mind a bit too much and i basically switched off because i hav no interest in nasty stuck up woman like that .Im not into wasting time and money on those sorts, im only interested in quality women who are realistic , long term prospects , women who are caring and affectionate.Those nasty women are best bypassed by going straight to the whores , because , you avoid all that frustrating b.s , get exactly what you are needing and avoid wasting time and money for no gain .

  • Joe R

    Well As life would have it I’ve been had a few times on the drink issue and dealt with it poorley, so now I’ve been reading writer’s like you and this one sounds better. I’ll buy you a drink if you give me your best impression of Mick Jaggar ok. This to me lets her earn it as opposed to just getting something for nothing and proving I’m not a push over for a freebie.

  • GMacK

    This is terrible. I need a new wing woman.

  • aaron

    Hi Marni,

    Here are two questions that always trip me up. I would love to here your take on them.

    1. Why is a great guy like you not taken yet?

    My Answer : I guess I just haven’t found my perfect match yet.

    2. Why did you and your last girlfriend break up?

    My Answer (the truth) : She moved out of the country.

    Thanks,
    Aaron

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Hey Aaron

      I actually like both of your answers: I think the key here is to say what is true to you, sincere and not say anything to seek approval or explain yourself to another person.

      Good luck

      Marni :)

  • SteveP

    Wow, Great Information here, If your prepared to let go of what doesn’t work, and hasn’t worked in your life, and get that if you keep doing the same thing, thats right, you’ll get the same results. LEARN & CHANGE. I cant believe there are so many bitter comments in this blog about women, how “they” should change, thats a losing battle my friends, just accept that this is how it is and what do “I” need to do to change my experience.

    Me, Didn’t have a clue about women, didn’t even know the shit test existed, not because I didn’t care, but because I was a straight up guy, I would never test, I would never do that sort of thing to a person and was living in a fools paradise that nobody else would or should either, I was clueless as to what to say when My now ex wife bombarded me continually with them, I didn’t recognise the questions as tests, where they were coming from and failed them miserably, but after a divorce and never wanting that happening again, Im learning all I can about women, and ultimately more about myself and respecting myself more and not being a doormat, and stepping up to the plate when these tests come, thats attractive to a woman, along with being nice with some teasing humor and having fun with them, like the hot girl I just met last weekend at a karaoke bar, she asked me If I’d sing the gambler for her and her friends, so I made fun of her saying that she must have a gambling problem, and that I noticed she wasn’t wearing much bling and that she must of pawned it off to fund her gambling habit, She Instantly leaned in and lit up like a christmas tree, She turned out to be married, but she still couldn’t help touching me all night and looking at me flirtatiously.
    I have to say, I was a good looking young bloke, Been told as a younger person I could of been a model, but my success with women Is better now at age 40 with “OK” looks and thinning hair. This after about two months of learning and applying what i’m learning, and I REALLY SUCKED at dating before because I didn’t understand at all what was happening. This article is absolute gold. LEARN & APPLY or dismiss and fail.

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Hey Steve

      Thanks for taking the time to write this. I’m so glad to hear that you’ve started to realise the success you’ve always wanted with women: and learned in the process that it is about knowing yourself, and being assured in that, that wins hands down over looks with women

      Best of luck for the future

      Marni :)

  • Dustin

    Hi Marni, I read through this article and the comments and still have a question:

    Hearing this is a little overwhelming, especially after only having just started to try and become a better and more attractive guy recently. I can’t help but becoming very aggavated when I read things like “Get what is due her as a desirable lady”. Really? That comes off as incredibly egotistical. How about if I respond with the comment, “As a desirable guy, I don’t need to deal with someone interested in playing head games, thanks”.

    Do you see what I mean? I could respond this way and women would pretend I’m being mean or something, but egotistical attitudes like that are accepted from women without thinking about it, and they seem to want that.

    How can I help to not become irritated by these tests?…

    • Ardiana the adventurer

      You can say that, but it will get you nowhere with women as eventually they all see you’re a guy who can’t / doesn’t know how to handle them “properly”. You could still get laid though, by avoiding them which is pretty ok. :) It’s like having a nuclear bomb ticking in your basement: If you watch your step to not trip the wires you’re ok. But it’ll blow eventually if you don’t know how to defuse it. I personally haven’t encountered any of these shit tests, probably becasue I haven’t got that far…

  • Charles

    Great read Marnie. It’s very refreshing to know that women do this. It seems to be a decent enough way to find out how badly I want her as well as how patient of a man I may be. I’m sure there are alot of women out there who appreciate a man who is patient with them..

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Patience is a great quality; but it’s more about understanding why a woman does things, and so the best way to react. Getting the real reason behind why women do shit tests helps to stop it feeling like an attack, and more like a sign of vulnerability.

      Marni :)

  • Jayviz FAM-SWAG

    Shit tests are fun, they are an opportunity to show your funny witty side, I don’t see them a burden but as a game and games are fun ;)

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Good outlook Jayvis! It is best not to take shit tests personally … Marni :)

  • Paul

    I gave my own shit test to woman, if they can we can,I want to see they react, it’s only fair, I want a value woman not just any woman , I need a woman to stimulate my mind and body, as looks last only last so long.

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  • George

    In my opinion most of the time women use shit tests just to find out the kind of person you are not necessarily because they are feeling chemistry.

    If you pass sure the flood gates will open.It is best to try not to take this personal as it can hurt sometimes when the girl you are romantically attracted to all of a sudden slaps your face with some test.

    Girls who have a pick of the litter always see themselves as having options and will test periodically even after the have you to be sure they are with the right man.

    Have you ever heard the saying i fall in love with him everyday.To me it simply means compared to all the other guys i can be with he is still attractive to me.And am sure that emotionally sound guy passed some shit test without even knowing.

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Hey Gorgee

      I think actually you’re so right when you say being ‘emotionally sound’ as a guy is a key to breezing sh*t tests. Being certain of yourself, not being thrown by what women throw at you is really valuable here. I understand that isn’t all that easy, BUT just knowing that women aren’t trying to ‘attack’ you when they’re testing you can help. Most women will test when they feel vulnerable, insecure and uncertain- when they are weak.

      Thanks for your comments :-)

      • http://twitter.com/physics_ron Ron

        So far, all the comments are generalities… no one has offered any hints or examples of how to deal with a particular “shit test”… If you have just met a woman, and she goes down this route… why not just drop her at the first sign of a shit test, and move on to a friendlier woman??

        • Marni Wing Girl

          Hey Ron

          Sh*t tests don’t actually have too much to do with how friendly, or not, a woman is. Whilst it’s easier to begin with to speak to a woman who is friendly & approachable it is in a woman’s nature to ‘test’. This isn’t meant to be as hostile as it can sometimes feel, it’s just her way of assessing if you’re a guy who can handle her, who she can trust. So whilst you can always approach women who are in that moment happy be prepared to handle a few sh*t tests in the future no matter who you’re with.

          Women are just hard wired to test guys, just like men are hard wired to go after the woman they want.

          Marni :-)

  • Julian

    I don’t mean to be negative, but let’s honestly look at the situation that shit tests appear in. Generally a “shit test” will occur in a bar-like setting (parties, clubs, etc). In all my experience as a human being I have RARELY come across an example of a relationship that started at one of these locales that turned into a successful, lasting marriage.

    My point is that, as a man, if you are to meet a woman at a bar, you will not see the real her. She will have guards (friends), blocks (preconceptions), and barriers (insecurities). Chances are, if you were to meet that same woman at the book store or coffee shop, you would receive a MUCH better look at her real personality.

    All you have to do is say hi, and if she’s interested conversation will flow.

    • Julian

      I also understand that shit test will occur from time to time in a steady relationship, these are generally not tests, but subtle pleas for questions directed to her emotional well being. If a woman you are in a relationship with throws a “shit test” at you, it’s generally only meant to test your continued interest in her and your general perceptiveness of her emotions.

      IE, she will ask you “Why are you being so boring today?” Your best reply would be, “I’m sorry honey , I’ve been thinking about work a lot lately. Why don’t we do a dinner date tonight? I’d love to just sit and talk over a glass of wine.” This will confirm to her that you are still interested in her as your number one priority and will give her a great arena to begin a conversation that will ultimately lead to deeper intimacy between you both. And you’ll probably have some great sex afterwards.

      • Marni Wing Girl

        Hey Julian

        I think what you have to say about sh*t tests is really valuable: it is more of a reflection of a womans insecurities than yourself a lot of the time. Soothe her concerns and avoid taking an adverserial stance with her and you will have a happier resolution to your relationship issues

        Marni :)

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  • Δημητρης Ιωαννου

    So we must be glad that the “little princess” is giving us shit tests.
    Well you know what, there is gender equality, so why don’t guys give shit tests to the girls for a change and see if they would like that?

  • Δημητρης Ιωαννου

    The best response to a shit test, no matter what that shit test is
    “is this a test?”
    After a couple of shit tests that get exposed she won’t even dare to give a third one. End of story.

  • Marc

    Women who use shit tests are insecure, non-self-aware idiots. Caveat Emptor. When I encounter such women, I throw them back and look for a better one. Maybe you should, too. When women get tired of either 1) what David DeAngelo lovingly calls the “curious dry feeling between their legs,” or 2) dating the poor bastards who are desperate enough to put up with their games, then they get to graduate to the big leagues. Otherwise, let mediocrity seek its own level.

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