How Women Use The Shit Test
I wanted to introduce you to one of my newest Wing Girls Orit who will be contributing to The Wing Girl Method blog.
Orit is a woman who has been both the victim and honored recipient of a variety of pick-ups–from the most aggressive to the gentlest–by an international cadre of men.
She is passionate about teaching men how to approach and succeed with WOMEN.
She has written a piece on “How Women Use The Shit Test” which I know will be an eye opener for many of you.
How Women Use The Shit Test
There is no scientific definition for “shit test”, but it’s generally defined as follows: the test a woman gives a man in the early stages of dating, usually through curious and sly questions or comments.
Here are some example and their categories (they vary in shittiness):
A) Some deal with your courtship rituals, like “I can’t talk with a man until he buys me a drink”
B) Some deal with her sex appeal, like “that barwoman is so hot? Don’t you think?”
C) Some deal with your dating habits, like “so you’re quite the player, aren’t you?”
D) Some deal with your intellectual prowess, like she’ll tell a joke (it could be unintelligble) and say, “You’re a little slow, aren’t you?”
Women do this, sometimes consciously, sometimes not. If we do it—embrace it. It means we’re interested. It means we’re stimulated—or want to be. It means we’re setting up sexual tension. It means we want to dance, rather than just sit around bored, twittling our thumbs, waiting for some cuter guy to come along. But it also means we’re setting up a protective layer—because you might just be the one to make us happy, and hence hurt us.
The shit test is often interpreted as a test a woman gives to see if he is worthy of her; it’s her way of weeding out the pussies from the men. She’s so great and perfect, she has the pick of the litter, so she has the luxury of choosing the smartest, the best, fittest. That’s only half the story. Here’s the other (female) half: the shit test doesn’t only test your confidence, it is designed to raise hers!
Even the smart and beautiful woman has many insecurities. (Is he only after my body? Will he still like me without make-up and when I have morning breath? Will he continue to pursue me when I start needing or pursuing him?). She knows she’s the prettiest girl at the party, but she also knows she’s a little girl seeking love. So she sets up small pitfalls, knowing that some ditches are in store when you get past the first drink and actually get to know each other.
The questions/comments are designed to (referring to the earlier examples, respectively):
A) Get what is due her as a desirable lady being courted by a man
B) Confirm your attraction to her above others
C) Differentiate you from the jerks
D) Know that you’ll seek to understand her and be a better man for her
But the desirable woman doesn’t want to broadcast her insecurities, so she hides them through wit and challenge. The man must show he’s not fazed by or even cognizant of her insecurities, so he should respond with wit and challenge in kind, while also boosting her up. Some PUA’s advise the man to ignore the shit test (by changing the subject)—and that’s good advice if you only want to get into her pants. But if you actually want to date her, you should step up and use the shit test as an opportunity to prove that you can handle her–when she’s up on that pedestal as a goddess, and when she’s a plain woman taking a poop on a different kind of pedestal.
Here are some examples of answers to the sample questions above. (If the chemistry’s right, your intuition should guide you.)
A) I was about to get you a drink, but I didn’t want you to think I wanted to get you drunk
B) She’s okay (then look at her like with desire), but you’re the hottest girl here (watch her blush)
C) Of course I’m a player, just looking for the right woman to reform me (wink)
D) What can I say, I’m no match for your wit, but I can drive a pretty fast Ferrari, can you?
Ultimately, the shit test is not only testing yours, but hers. And when the shit hits the fan, she wants to know that you can laugh about it together. Because, ultimately, she’s human too.
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Dating Tips: Top Mistakes Men Make On A Date
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Do Women Want Bad Boys? A Female Perspective
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How To Use The Law Of Attraction To Get More Women
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The Insiders Style Assessment
Get A Wing Girl – WGM In The Huffington Post
women do this kind of thing?
gah!
I”m so glad I’m a happily married man. When I was dating, I hated men who played these games. Now to read that women are doing it too. This is a step backward in my opinion.
I am not sure you read the entire article. It talks about women asking these questions because they are insecure in themselves. Again NOT A GAME but a cry subtle cry for help. We women have a weak moments as well.
Even your wife will do this stuff. Read the whole article and I guarantee it will teach you ways to stop the nagging and get you more sex with your wife.
It’s so funny to me that women always say men are terrible communicators. I’ve, for the most part, found this to be just the opposite. When a guy friend has a problem, he tells me. When a girlfriend has a had a problem in the past, it usually only comes out in an explosive tirade of insults and anger. And why? Because she didn’t know how to communicate her problem and held it in for so long that she couldn’t take it anymore. Why didn’t I understand all that body language she was telling me? Am I BLIND??? Well yeah, of course I was saying one thing, but my body was saying just the opposite, how could you not see that? HAHA
I have been very stubborn to accept dealing with all this, but I’m afraid I’m going to just have to give in and play this game. And yes, it is a game, whether the girl realizes it or not. The girls want the guys to figure them out, and basically the less interested the guy seems in them, the more they are attracted, thereby chasing away all the really good guys, leaving the players as the remaining multiple choice.
Ok, so the problem is in the girls’ heads. They constantly over analyze everything and want us to take the time to learn how to recognize all this body language, and learn how to be attractive to them. Ok, so why not just save time, cut out all this playing, and learn to recognize your own insecurities, and how those are the TRUE things that cause a woman not to be attracted to a guy…a GOOD guy.
Oh well, I’m 41 and am tired. Guess I’ll just “join ‘em” as they say. : )
Usually if a girl tells me she wants a drink, I take the opportunity to ask, “really, do you have a boyfriend?” That way, we can get the main question out of the way — is she single. I’ve had girls tell me “actually yes, I do” (what does that say!) … if they do, I shouldn’t really be buying drinks for them, should I.
NO YOU SHOULD NOT. Hold onto your cash if they have a boyfriend UNLESS you actually are enjoying the conversation, are ok with the fact they have a boyfriend and REALLY want to buy them a drink.
Good tactic. A little abrasive but effective I am sure.
Hahaha! I really think a lot of you are just reading the first line.
“I can’t talk with a man until he buys me a drink.”
That’s funny, I’m the same way with women. Why don’t you get me a Manhattan?
I love when men do stuff like that. I am not the kind of girl who demands a drink but if I were to and a man responded that way I would totally be in love with him.
I’m guessing most gals who would demand a drink wouldn’t appreciate the cheekiness, though.
Catch-22.
Stop giving away all our secrets, damnitt.
See I told you women would get mad
Do you know how many shit tests I have failed before I figured out what was going on? Most of my foibles were due to trying too hard to impress girls or just overthinking shit, almost like I could sense something was up but I wasn’t quite sure what. Now I just either smile wryly or say something witty. I think the key is to a) not get pissed if she seems too testy and b) don’t fail the test by trying to impress her (aka buying her a drink just because she told you to do so).
The utter lack of anything intelligent in this article has made this article infamous: http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/8zo2n/how_women_use_the_shit_test/
Men do not enjoy emotional land mines. Men are men, be honest with them. Every scenario is different between men and women, but when games like these “shit” tests are played, it speaks volumes about the character of the woman and shows those insecurities to be detrimental to a man’s health and well-being.
It’s really just common fucking sense. The bullshit you throw out will always coming back to you.
Reason, I completely agree with you and I am a woman and this is my site. I wish men and women would just be honest and not use these “shit tests” but they currently do but they can be stopped and Orit gives great examples of how to cause a woman’s insecurities really quickly.
This article is not saying it’s a game or something shitty that women do to men it is saying it is something shitty women do to themselves.
I am a strong, confident, independent woman, 95% of the time. When I like someone, I have my moments. With all the information I know I still have stumble and fall off the wagon but only for a short while.
If I have a man that can work with my insecurities and I can work with his then it is a match made in heaven.
I wish the same for everyone.
This kind of dismissal of what’s in a woman’s heart (whether you agree or not) is the kind of behavior that turns most women OFF and leads to more alienation between the sexes.
Let’s say I gave this article to a man as a glorified shit test (whether consciously oro not). If he dismissed it and called me a manipulative game-player—I’d definitely turn the other direction, feeling not listened to and attacked. We’re not manipulative game-players—we’re just scared too!
Instead, men should welcome a new point-of-view to understand the other sex—her strengths and weaknesses–and not to build more walls. We must learn to accept rebuke from each other, and that’s also what “shit tests” are designed to do.
If I gave this article to a guy to read, he wouldn’t be for me if he gets scared or put-off. My dream response would be something like: “Wow, I didn’t know men could be such jerks to make you have to shit on us like that as a way of protecting yourself. It must be hard being pretty and smart because you’re always put on a pedestal—or else men just want to get into your pants. In an age where looks are emphasized over brains and character, no wonder you have to tread carefully and make sure a man is interested in penetrating your heart. Okay, Orit, I think I’m ready for you. Give me your best shot—give me your hardest “shit test” and I will do my best to respond.” At which point I would smile coyly (as a natural reaction), maybe with a tear dripping down, and just give him a HUGE hug, feeling like I’m already falling in love.
> I didn’t know men could be such jerks to make you have to shit on us like that as a way of protecting yourself.
Whoa—you’re trying to blame /men/ for /women’s/ insecurities? You /have/ to engage in passive-aggressive behavior? I’m sorry; no.
Just because I /understand/ why a person might act the way that they do doesn’t mean that it’s cool. Though if someone pulled one of those questions on me, her response to my answer would tell me a lot about whether it was worth continuing the conversation.
“Wow, I didn’t know men could be such jerks to make you have to shit on us like that as a way of protecting yourself. It must be hard being pretty and smart because you’re always put on a pedestal—or else men just want to get into your pants. In an age where looks are emphasized over brains and character, no wonder you have to tread carefully and make sure a man is interested in penetrating your heart. Okay, Orit, I think I’m ready for you. Give me your best shot—give me your hardest “shit test”
Hahaha this is priceless and beyond true.
Some that I’ve gotten are, “I can’t reach this, can you get it for me?”; “don’t you think Angelina Jolie is hot?”; “would it be considered cheating if I fucked Brad Pitt while we were dating?” (this one I responded with – “Wow – well then since I believe reciprocity is key in a relationship then that must give me permission to make moves on Shannon Sossamon”)
Just be playful. I don’t really take women’s words at face value, instead I take it as inuendo – learn to scan their interests behind what they say. When this comes up sometimes I’ll turn the tables and make statements to test their reactions.
The ones that give me a chase are the ones that are interested – as well as aware of what they’re doing.
Awesome brian! I knew you were one of my favorites.
Women are too much fun to ignore their play games. I grew up playing games WITH them, not at them.
I used to snatch phones out of their hands “I heard these explode if you send more than 100 texts within an hour” then put my number in and title it as “Call this number.”
This is how most girls read interest from guys. Even if you end up in the ‘friend zone’ she’ll still recognize you as fun, playful, and comfortale enough in your skin that you can have a good time regardless of your mood.
Marni’s newsletters just gave reinforcement to my perspectives. Listen to her, I’m successful about 90.7124832% of the time – she’s a smart girl (when she tells me I’m her favorite).
Weird…I usually just say something like…”why are you asking me that question, I want to make sure I give you an answer that directly addresses your interest” and of course I ask because I am wanting to understand her better…to get to the heart of the question and answer it directly….that said..I realize most women won’t want to give me an answer for that because of their insecurities and if that’s the case…then the woman is too insecure for me…..so now that I explain this..I realize I am using the turn the tables strategy and shit testing her back. lol
Absolutely. Sometimes one of the best ways I’ve found to be playful /is/ to take obviously “trapping” questions at face value. The “is hot” question is really common, and you can just play along with it. “Oh, God, yes! I love her tattoos, and she moves like a lynx. What turns /you/ on most about her?” Now she’s the one being tested.
I have to agree with Neal. I feel that this post was not supposed to glorify women and shit tests but it was meant to enlighten others to realize both women and men have insecurities and that SHIT TESTING is not coming from a bad place. Rather it’s coming from a sad place. There are a lot of options out there and a lot of things happening around both and women that can feed into insecurities and as a partner, when in a relationship, sometimes we have to help curb insecurities.
For those who are just meeting, the girl can be totally awesome but again may have some deep rooted insecurities based on past experiences with men. Because of this, if the girl is awesome in other areas, it would be nice for a strong man to be aware of reasons behind their possible shit tests to help calm her and let her realize he is one of the good ones.
Of course, to make her comfortable relation is key – my experience with unicorn status women, though, they don’t like to relate that quickly. I’m not going to lie, I did that a long time ago but it didn’t work as well. Yes – absolutely, when it comes down to genuine conversation, the best approach IS to listen and relate, of course. I’ll agree with you on that. But since I’ve left that idea I have enough options that I focus in on true ladies who hold my attention. I’m trying to think of an example…. OH! Michael Douglas’ character in Fatal Attraction – the only man I can listen to for more than a half an hour.
When there’s a girl I really want to meet, sometimes I’d do something like:
(start talking) e.g. “hey do you speak russian? … ok good, because we were just talking about you…”
(compliment) e.g. “I like your dress, what is that called… very cute tonight!”
(setup) e.g. “You’re trying to get me to buy you a drink, aren’t you … that depends, do you have a boyfriend?”
there we go
What do the wing girls think? “Mystery” would say I am displaying “too much interest”
Not too much interest as long as you are not overly available to her and still have comfort and confidence in yourself. It’s all about controlling your inner emotions. Calm, cool, collected and comfortable.
I really do want to make a point of understanding how this works?
I really would like to know how far a drink would really get you anywhere especially in a Nightclub and all those lines on the net, forget it in a club you can’t hear yourself think!
What I would recommend is a shit test of my own and that is to Look straight into the eyes of the girl and ask her point blank why she’s playing a GAME, throw the thing right back at her and watch the reaction. She will come around and if not walk away as she is a player pure and simple, honestly there are plenty of women out there. As you walk away just look and tell her and tell her what you think of her.
Women make split second decisions about men, why can’t we??
She wants an equal then so be it, but isn’t it a sad statement about so called “Beautiful and Intelligent” women playing these games that are better suited for the childrens playground!
My problem with that is you’re way too affected with what other people are doing. If you are congruous, then there really should not be much that can be said that will faze you. Remember, you’re there to have your own life and enjoy it for your own benefit (and occasionally others around you). Who cares if someone else has a problem with you – that’s their problem!
I’m a gentleman and I make no qualms about it. Take it or leave it.. I’m going to have fun either way.
The article is great – I like the pointers and insights what she’s thinking. Thanks for the tips, Marni. Keep ‘em coming. For the record, I’m immediately suspicious of any woman who hates on you for spilling the beans. We all want great people in our lives, great orgasms, and a little lighthearted drama, right?
Damn right!
Thanks Adam
This article is dead on and I think you’re correct….people were only reading the first line. I was given a version of the shit test recently. While out I met a girl at the bar. After a while, I received a few IOIs (touch feely, laughs, compliments), but then she kept making references to other women at the bar, how pretty they were and why I wasn’t going out picking them up. It threw me off a little because I wasn’t sure if she was giving me a sign that she wanted to end the conversation. Next move was critical. So, I simply looked her dead in the eye and said, “Yea, there are a lot of pretty girls here tonight. But, why would I want to talk to them when I’m having such a good time getting to know you?” Then I grabbed her arm, and brought her out to dance. After that, she knew that night I was only interested in her, and her in me. Pick up wsa a success. But, the shit test can seriously throw you off if not properly handled.
SUPER SEXY. You must have been rewarded quite well for that one
It’s important to note that women usually don’t TRY to conduct the “shit test.” It comes up naturally. Just like a man doesn’t TRY to do things that annoy women (like not calling the day after the date even though there is mutual interest). We are wired differently, and it’s a natural part of our male/female psyche.
The “shit test” also shows up mostly during “pick-up” attempts and the real early stages of courtship. During face to face dates, the “shit test” may fade and “normal” conversation takes over. The more emotionally and intellectual mature men and women become (often through failed and successful relationships), the more the “shit test” becomes a fun, interesting, and enjoyable “game” rather than something to dread. Here’s another word for it: FLIRTATION.
People who don’t want to “play” (in the positive sense) should start dating people of the same sex.
Well, you can try *not* to conduct it, or you can get nowhere with me.
How’s that for a shit test?
…boring? You must be a ton of fun at parties.
If you get a question like one of the ones above, you don’t know what’s behind it. Maybe the gal is really insecure, and you should move along. Maybe it’s a momentary slip. Maybe she’s teasing you to see how you respond to obvious trap questions. You don’t know until you respond; hostility isn’t going to get you anywhere good.
Another way to look at it is like “casting.” There is a mutual audition going on. Men who view the “casting director” (i.e. the woman) with fear usually don’t get the part–they come across as inexperienced, grovelling novices. Men who know they can nail the audition and come in confident, ready to think on their toes (as in improv)–whether they give a stellar performance or not–impress the casting director either way. And once they are cast and the audition is over, they get into their roles, go out on real dates, and get to know each others weaknesses and strengths on a deeper level.
Women need a leading man in their life. We want the men to do well and pass the “audition”, deep down we’re dying for it–so go get ‘em!
well said!
Yea, I agree with Greg. Very well said. And isn’t that true with people in general? Business relationships? Friendships? Confidence – to be who you are and put on your performance regardless of how you think people might react.
I can’t comment until Marni buys me a drink.
Orit, you have such great insight and thank you for sharing it! So happy to see another woman out there telling men what they actually need to know about attracting a woman (and you are gorgeous too!).
When given the shit test, it’s important to remember that you don’t want to just comply with every little thing a woman throws at you like a lap dog. If your response to shit test #A is to say, “Oh, ok” and then buy her a drink, she will see that you are a total pushover and lose attraction. Showing interest is great, but bending to her every whim is not. This is why these witty responses work so well: they aren’t the “no” that will just trigger her insecurities, but they aren’t an automatic, overly-compliant yes.
BTW, in my opinion, the reason why some of the “PUAs” out there tell you to just ignore shit tests is because they don’t know how else to handle them! Hm, maybe they should read this blog…:)
Liz, I just wanted to say that I love your materials and I look forward to getting your newsletters. Would you ever consider offering that great discount again? I should have jumped on it when I had the chance.
Thanks Todd!
Hm…there might be a discount in the future if you ask nicely.
Orit, thank you for this.
What I think a lot of guys aren’t getting is that women don’t do this stuff to be mean, they do it because they’re women. As men we check out a woman’s boobs not because we’re shallow, but because it’s because we’re men. It’s in our nature. It’s our genes that are doing these things. One can no more call a woman childish for testing you than one can call a peahen a total bitch for checking out a peacock’s feathers.
I would even posit that most women test men without even being aware of it. Could it be that if a man fails a woman’s test, she thinks he is saying that he’s just not into her?
“Do you think she’s prettier than me?”
“She’s cute, but she doesn’t have the adorable little brat thing going on.”
I haven’t been getting any shit tests lately. That’s either really good, or really bad.
Totally agree todd. Thank you for making that point.
Thanks Marni.
I’ve been fascinated lately with this idea of there being a secret sexual language. Most women probably get it, most men do not. You and Orit are talking about it, and some of the guys responding are not even reading the words you wrote. We can be pretty clueless! It’s just a matter of learning another language. A lot of people don’t even believe that such a language exists. As Carl Sagan said, it’s like explaining the concept of “up” to the residents of Flatland.
One shit test that I think is awesome is “Men want sex way more than women do.” Translation: “I need your permission to be the sex-crazed animal that I really am, and I want to make sure you’re not going to judge me for it.”
Why doesn’t a woman just come out and ask that? Because it just doesn’t transmit very well on that channel.
Interesting insights! However, I have to say, I found this rather repellent:
> A) Get what is due her as a desirable lady being courted by a man
How many women do you think honestly believe that they’re “due” something for the pleasure of their company?
We all—guys and gals—want to know that the person we’re flirting with finds us attractive, isn’t a nasty person, and will seek to understand them. I don’t understand a sense of entitlement, though.
I don’t offer to buy people I’ve just met unreciprocated drinks. At best, it’s a crappy attempt to create a feeling of obligation; at worst, I’m being used as a vending machine. I’ll happily /share/ whatever I’m drinking with someone that I think is cute (that’s a lot more fun anyway
).
If someone tried to pull the “buy me a drink if you want me to talk to you” line, though, I’d assume they were seeing if I’m a pushover, and I’d respond with something (hopefully) witty and brassy (e.g., demanding they buy me a drink too, asking what I get for a drink). Anyone who gets offended, who really thinks I need to pay to talk to them, isn’t someone I want to talk to anyway.
There are certain rituals in courtships that feminism has tried to shake off but they remain rituals attuned to the nature of men and women–and they work. Buying a woman a drink (when there is mutual attraction), is a nice ritual. A man paying for the first date–beautiful! Then when they spend more time together they can discuss the “rituals” and re-adjust. I’ve date men who didn’t abide by the rituals and ultimately, for the most part, they weren’t there for me when it really mattered. It’s not an “obligation” but a sign of respect, no matter what age we live in.
If something like buying a woman a drink or paying for a first date is a sign of respect to her, what rituals do you feel a woman should engage in to show respect to a man?
Good question!
BTW, went out on blind date yesterday for coffee. He didn’t buy my coffee! Immediate turn-off. Broadcasts cheap and un-chivalrous and clueless about male-female dynamics. Even if you don’t like the woman after the first five seconds–buy her a coffee! It’s a code of chivalry–and me likey! Why chivalry works is the subject of a research paper.
I’ve run into a few of these myself and I can usually pick up on if the particular woman is being serious or not. More often than not they’re just messing around, but if they’re not, I don’t make light of it. I see it as all in fun, you can either handle the engineered awkwardness or not. On more than one occasion I’ve gone into absent mindedly answering a woman and have had some variation of the “I feel fat in this? Do I look fat?” and being distracted I’ve answered “Well no, not that fat” which has caused an awkward moment or two. Usually I snap back to attention and admit I was distracted..or with my current girlfriend she does it to snap me back to attention lol. so we usually have fun (banter back and forth )with it as well as anything else off the wall I tend say while distracted.
I am sending a post on behalf of Jordan Harbinger from pick up podcast (which is awesome by the way)
Argh, just lost a huge amount of text regarding this subject that I’d adapted from the PickUp Podcast blog (found here: http://www.pickuppodcast.com), but here’s the short version: Essentially what people here are missing so far is that these tests are 1) subconscious from the woman and 2) a sign of INTEREST. When you’re being tested by a woman, it’s because she is responding to attraction sparked within her. This attraction can be the result of your looks or other factors, but the fact of the matter is, if she wasn’t attracted, she’d have no reason to test you. Guys, get used to this, because your girlfriend and wife will do this until the day you die. The good news is, this is a natural screening mechanism that women have, and it’s in their best interest (otherwise they’d be bedding the other 10,000 guys who have approached them). Once you can handle this as a man, you’ll be able to amplify the attraction women feel for you. In other words, these tests are an opportunity to separate yourself from the throngs of guys that don’t pass muster. Last but not least, ENJOY it! At the end of the day, these tests are a signal that she’s attracted to you. Be flattered!
-Jordan PickUp Podcast & The Art of Charm http://www.pickuppodcast.com
—–
I’ve got a question for the wing girls.
It seems the more in demand you are, the more of an asshole you can be to others. I’ve asked out lots and lots of pretty girls and I was surprised to learn that they ALL did the same thing. Why do they do it?
Basically, I am honest and straightforward that I find them cute, and would like to take them out on a date. As soon as I display any interest in them, they start totally leading me on. This goes on for about a week. It’s typical… so typical, in fact, that I started to think there’s something about me that pushes these girls away. Except all the other girls, who are not in the top 99th percentile of looks, act NORMALLY.
My “problem” is that I am only interested in tall, very beautiful girls. Many of them appear very enthusiastic and give me their number. And then INVARIABLY almost every single one starts leading me on without actually meeting up. Whenever she talks to me, she insists she is interested in meeting, but then comes up with all sorts of excuses why she’s busy. Many of them barely answer.
Typical example: Friday on a bus stop, girl locks eyes with me, definitely interested in me. I like her too, we exchange numbers — she works for a TV station. I call on Sunday. She says she is at WORK (?). I say cool, should I call you tonight? She goes “definitely”. I call her that night, she doesn’t pick up. Text her – no response. Two days later I text “Serena, how about a drink next week? I hope giving me your number wasn’t a waste..” she replies right away “no, it wasn’t a waste! We should definitely get together!” … then I text her, excuses. A couple days later I call her, leave a voicemail, never calls back.
I mean, it’s so simple to pick up the phone and say “hey, sorry, I’m just not interested… I’m sorry to have led you on.” Simple. But they never so much as call me back, even if I specifically text them “look, if you’re not interested, I’d appreciate it if you let me know”. It’s like all the beautiful girls in new york are playing by the same rulebook. By contrast, every normal (not in top 2% of looks) girl behaves NORMALLY and treats me like a fellow human being after I get her number.
I should also mention:
* I am a 26 year old guy
* I meet really good looking girls in NYC
* I am very tall and relatively good looking myself … I have the confidence to come up to her where most guys would not, and express interest and ask her out.
It just doesn’t make sense. It’s not like she’s holding out for a BETTER guy. If she’s *single*, she has no reason NOT to go out with me. And even if she had a reason, she could just value my time and call me back out of human decency. Yet she gives me her number and then delights in not calling me back.
Why do they punish guys who boldly display interest in them, by leading those guys on? Why?
…
And then, why do they complain that guys don’t treat them right… isn’t that a bit hypocritical?
dude u need to learn the art of the con.
she just using u to inflate her ego…. she being a flake. she probably single and not attached too
i noticed that seem very polite and cordial….that so 17th century…
u should probably show more dominance on the 1st encounter man..or just delete her number and on to next chick
Yeah I actually just found a scientific basis for what I keep seeing over and over:
http://www.welmer.org/2009/07/06/study-treating-some-women-well-causes-negative-response/
Read that: treating attractive women nicely can cause negative response. Makes sense .. as soon as you are interested, she can take you or leave you. I am still at a loss then, about how to meet an attractive woman I have never seen before and will never see again…. arrange a date … all without showing interest!
Interest works … because they can’t say no… but then they realize later “that guy wanted me. That’s no challenge at all. Why should I even waste my time? Every guy wants me!”
whoa whoa whoa!! I think I spotted your problem. You misinterpreted what that guy was saying in his article. There is a huge difference between being nice and being a wimp. Wimpy guys get shit on by women because frankly they make it easy. As a woman I find it annoying when is a wimp and you can walk all over him because ultimately you do.
Women want nice men, who respect themselves, have boundaries and don’t allow ANYONE, not just women, to walk all over them.
Additionally, you could be smothering these pretty ladies. When you aggressively pursue a woman, you put on her pressure. You’re already broadcasting: you’re so hot therefore I want to go out with you. Keep it a little more casual. Acknowledge that she’s cute and that you want to get to know her–not “score” a date with her. Women–and probably men too–don’t like to feel pressured.
Also–how about trying to go after the non-hotties? What a concept!
Don’t be like a dog, going up to her and wagging her tail and begging to play. Be more like a cat, approach gracefully and calmly, rubbing your head on her chin for brief moments and purring.
Maybe the niceness study wasn’t really appropriate to quote here. The phenomenon I’m describing has nothing to do with niceness. It has to do with the fact that I meet them without any context, and express interest too early — whether I say let’s grab coffee, or let’s see a movie in Bryant park, etc. The reason is they are cute and I would like to get to know them.
These girls are desired all around and they know it. That’s why several days later they can barely remember who I am, much less want to go on a date with me. They try to get rid of my calls, but don’t have the guts to just say straight out they made a mistake and aren’t interested.
I am no wimp. I have the balls to come up to attractive women, and express my interest with panache and social intelligence. I am not bad looking or unattractive. I am just painfully aware that showing interest to a really beautiful woman too soon in a random situation kills your chances 9 out of 10 times.
Out of all my approaches, a general pattern emerges:
* girls who are in the top 2% of looks, almost invariably lead me on with fake promises of getting together, they play phone games, come up with excuses, etc.
* everyone else acts normally … e.g. if they are busy they don’t pick up, then they call me back.
To wit, I’ve probably done this 100 times by now. Obviously my sample is skewed towards NYC girls under 25 and tall beautiful ones at that. But the results don’t lie. Almost every single attractive girl who gives me her number acts this way, and every other girl acts normally.
Basically what I don’t understand is:
Clearly being honest and showing interest doesn’t work for me with these girls, no matter how charming I am. So how am I supposed to get these tall beautiful girls without showing interest? I can think of only one way … and that is get a profession like bartender, model photographer, director, etc. … because clearly cold approaching and showing interest –regardless of how it’s done –results in a useless phone number and a forgettable impression.
It’s developed character – not rehearsed lines. Confidence is contagious, and so is not having confidence. I’m going to slap you with my dick if you use anything like, “you look like my next girlfriend”. That’s a NO no
I’m retiring from this blog
Why the obsession with tall, beautiful girls? Maybe you need to try dating other kinds of women who may not be model-esque but who respond to you because of all the great qualities you have.
i normally wont take advice from women about women…but i likey
thmm.. the shit test… it not designed to find the right man.. unless its the man for the night.huh…u with so far
it’s sure test for qualities that any confident self assured man would have. he may not be a good man but hey woman have high pain thresh hold …………the purpose is to mate,,plain and simple…woman fall in love …men get laid simple… women play games guys and love is a game but so is war. so stop bitching like a girl and just accept what MARNI has to say. i mena who cares about why they give shit test…we should learn to get around it..why becasue we wanna get laid.
hey i wonder i some one can write a romance novel from a the male perspective for once
They do. It’s called Hustler
She’s testing you, go in for the kill
Marni – this is awesome. You mean to tell me that Orit is just the first of 20 or so women to give us her take on reality. Her hopes and fears, her true desires to be with a guy and in the broader picture to get us together with women… sweet!
Orit – thanks for taking the time to put words to print. I appreciate your ability to turn a phrase and the courage to let the whole world read it.
I was particularly intrigued by your belief that the shit test is the opportunity to raise her up. I have failed these tests miserably and passed others with flying colors. I’d say that it really depended on how interested I was and how good our chemistry was. But I have always felt the pressure of the test. The more experience I get the less I worry about anything my date has to say that is negative or ‘testy’. The fact of my reality these days is that it is a fantastic place to be and its a privilege to be invited in. Women are noticing and approaching me. Takes a lot of work out of the whole “should I go talk to her” thing.
The real insight for me in what you said is that there is an opportunity to make a connection because you or the general ‘her’ is asking to be heard. That lets me put a completely different frame on things. Instead of me being tested its simply me listening to another human being and responding as i see fit. If it goes to the next level then great! If not thats ok too – I learned something because I listened and hopefully you did too by risking enough to make the request and catching whatever response I managed to come up with.
Can’t wait to see what comes next on this blog!
Her: So you’re quite the player, aren’t you?
Me: Well of course! And we have to hurry because my other date is on her way….lol.
I hear some of the guys on this blog bitching and complaining about women testing them but actually when a women tests a man it helps you GROW AS A MAN! If you can deal with women I trutly believe you can deal with anything in life. When a women test you play with it! Have fun…it really does mean she likes you. I have approached 200 plus women and trust me when I say they LOVE it when you passed their test. If you can pass women’s test you will have more women in your life that you can handle. Here’s a classic test women give say to men.
Her: I have a boyfriend.
Most guys give me or they get mad. This is what I say and do.
Me: OMG we just met and you are already thinking of me as a potential mate! Slow down you are moving too fast for me.
If you aren’t out approaching women then you won’t and never will trutly understand why women test men. So guys get your ass out there and start talking to women. Hire Marni, buy her material, whatever you have to do.
Also read a book called THE WAY OF THE SUPERIOR MAN by david deida he talks about how women will TEST YOU UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE EVEN WHEN YOU’RE MARRIED!
I was married for almost 11 years. My ex would occasionally test me with, “What do you think of her?” If I said that she had some fault she would say that I was too picky. If I said that she was pretty then my ex would say, “You don’t say that about me!” There was no correct answer to that question! She would also test me with temper tantrums, undermining my authority with my own kids, and withholding sex. There really can be a thing as too much testing!
Really enjoyed the article. In years past I completely missed or screwed up these tests, thankfully now I just enjoy them. At the very least it makes for a more entertaining conversation. I think its not about having the perfect response but being confident enough in yourself to not let any of these tests faze you.
I want to thank Orit for giving it to us guys straight. Here’s a thought we guys have to realize:
Everyone has their price, but no one is making you pay.
If she really ‘can’t talk with a man until he buys her a drink’ and you are against that, you can (and better) walk away.
What, would we prefer that she give us the advice that women usually give men about dating?
I will return the favor and give a little secret about men. We men NEED to be tested to stay attracted. I will tell you a story from my own past:
I dated a girl for 2 years. And during that time, she never said no to me sexually! Great thing, huh? Nope. I even found myself feeling a little resentful that she didn’t ever say no. It so would have turned me on for her to say something like “You want me? Then you’re going to have to catch me, carry me to the bedroom and rip off my clothes yourself!” It would have really made me feel masculine.
But she never did. Yeah, I suppose that I could have ‘communicated honestly’ and told her, but isn’t that kind of like telling your friend to throw you a surprise party? Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn’t it.
Women need to be a little careful about taking ‘men’s advice’. We’ll tell you how much we hate drama and want you to be straightforward and low-maintenance. But if you take this too far, you’ll become a buddy. We’ll appreciate you, but you could end up becoming the friend we talk to about all those girls we’re pining after who keep ’saying one thing and doing something else’.
Great post. I think I’ve been shit tested by every girl I’ve dated. I also think the various flirting moves girls do–showing off cleavage mid-conversation, inadvertent physical touches, various poses–can be shit tests of sorts to see how easily manipulable a guy is. Even if “tests” aren’t done on purpose, the girl can still judge the guy’s reactions and get the same information as she could have from conscious tests.
I think another way to counter is for the guy to respond to the girl with his own tests. Tester is a role and when the roles are switched, women seem to ordinarily respond to guy tests by the PUA concept of qualifying (e.g. Guy challenges girl’s adventurousness. She qualifies her adventurousness) if they find him attractive. Ironically, this is thought of as one of the worst ways for guys to respond to tests (e.g. Girl challenges guy to first buy her a drink. He does so without resistance).
Orit, I enjoyed your article. It’s regrettable that the comments tended to drag the whole thing down.
But listen, you’re a good writer, you have a really nice style, and I enjoy your frankness and your fresh perspective.
I would encourage you to keep writing articles. I don’t agree with all of your ideas but it’s interesting to read your side of the coin because it’s so different.
You had a couple of nice comments too. You do have writing talent, so please keep it up.
From my own point of view, as an older guy (tending to interact with women 20 or 30 years younger), shit tests are just a part of life if you’re involved in any way with dating or relationships. As a man you have to learn how to deal with them.
In the pickup community there are about half a dozen standard ways, but the way I always prefer is the witty riposte, because then you get into this kind of playful fencing match of wit and it can be pretty fun and stimulating mentally, emotionally… and maybe other ways too, but I don’t want you thinking about that.
By the way, intelligence in a woman is incredibly sexy. Speaking as a man, a woman can often completely bowl me over with intelligence, creativity, and a forward-thinking mind.
One of the strangest experiences I ever had was when I was at a wine tasting, and I went up and started talking to this very attractive woman — primarily because I was afraid of attractive women at that time, so I was sort of pushing myself. The strangest thing happened. After about 5 or 10 minutes, and she began to say things that identified her as a very literary type — she later told me that she had been a writing teacher — but I was enamored with the breadth and creativity of her mind (I’m not saying she was a genius but she was quite bright), that my attraction for her based on her mind actually was greater than the attraction I felt for her based on her looks. I don’t know if I’m saying that right. In other words, I actually no longer cared what she looked like. And she was quite attractive. But it no longer mattered. I really liked her mind and personality, and that attraction simply took over, and the other just receded. This was a woman I could see growing old with — and as you get older, that becomes important, because you are aware of how fickle Nature is with your looks, no matter how good you look when you’re young.
Anyway… there’s one man’s view.
Keep it up, orit — I want to read more from you.
Steve
Thanks, Steve. You should know as a woman how much we like sincere compliments, as well as the affirmation that our intellect matters!
[Her] “Hey, silly boy, do you think she’s prettier than me?”
[Moi] “Aww maaan fuddruckers, she’s cute, but she doesn’t have that en-rapturous li’l bratty thing going on like you do Silly. So, I reckon she won’t be getting any spankings tonight…from one such as me.” [insert elongated pause here... for impactual-effect] And then…”btw sweetie, c’mere you…come closer…closer…uh-huh yeah there…(==========> leans in…and intones in Argentinean ‘n Italian vocalized-inflections… ] signorina-chiquitita, have I told you yet that– the li’l curls in your hair…are strikingly stunning?!” [snip]
Jose Two Times — I’m gonna get the papers. Get the papers.
I never buy a girl I don’t already know a drink.
I’ll buy you a drink, depending on how good of a kisser you are
.
or, a girl I knew was working as a shot girl at a club. I was already getting free drinks and was drunk enough.
her: wanna buy a shot?
me: no, but thanks for asking. Do you wanna buy me a shot?
what do ya think?
[Her] “Hey, silly boy, do you think she’s prettier than me?”
[Moi] “Aww maaan fuddruckers, she’s cute, but she doesn’t have that en-rapturous li’l bratty thing going on like you do Silly. So, I reckon she won’t be getting any spankings tonight…from one such as me.” [insert elongated pause here... for impactual-effect] And then…”btw sweetie, c’mere you…come closer…closer…uh-huh yeah there…(==========> leans in…and intones in an Argentinean ‘n Italian vocalized-inflection… ] signorina-chiquitita, have I told you yet that– the li’l curls in your hair…are strikingly stunning?!” [snip]
Jose Two Times — I’m gonna get the papers. Get the papers.
I have to say this is pretty disheartening to hear. These type of games disgust me. It’s also hard for me to sympathize with you saying women are insecure when conversing with a guy. The guy came up to you, he’s interested.
I might add, some of these things in the shit test you mention would potentially detour that charming wonderful guy from wanting to be with you. Saying you “only talk to guys who buy you drinks” sets you up as a bitch who is just trying to use the man for nothing but your own gain. Even mentioning you are “thirsty” to a guy should be enough to get him to buy you a drink, if he is a gentlemen. If not, don’t bother. Something you should also consider is all the accusations you mentioned are also possible turn offs. Trying to compare us to the bartender, I would think “Is this women going to compare herself to every woman we meet?” guys like confidence in women, and don’t like it when women fish for compliments. Scrutinizing a man’s intelligence is a surefire way to get on their bad side, if they are stupid they might not notice, but if you are looking for a smart guy, he won’t take this as flirting, but more as an insult. I understand the need to have barriers when meeting people, and not wanting to get hurt. Men don’t want to get hurt either. But doing things like this will only stray away from genuine men. Lets play, but please play nicely. Remember it takes a lot for a guy to approach a woman, you have the advantage in the situation, so be kind.
I have my doubts about the concept of female “PUA”. First off, women are chiefly an emotional sort. The logical approach of most Pick Up Artistry simply clashes with their sentimental approach. It’ll be like a man using logic in a fight, they go in with a plan and the next thing they know they’re flinging haymakers. Women go in with their ideas and the next thing they know they’re lost in his flirtatious mind games. Good men are leaders. That means by definition any ploy a woman might have would be relatively useless, unless it was a tag along game (which of course women are naturally equipped with instinctively, i.e. shit tests) Simply put, if a woman is logical enough to figure out game – it’d be a real shame, and highly doubtful, that she’d have a problem finding her ideal guy.
Interesting post. You are not the first to doubt a females ability to relay helpful advice to men on attracting women. I have to let you know that the women of WGM are like other women but with one extra ability. The ability to articulate and recognize attraction. We are not fools and understand that women operate on interesting levels. Strong women will fall to the feet of pick up artists and we know why. We get it and we can explain it.
If you have any specific questions let us know.
If a (fatherless) gf says things like,
‘I want to shop around (for other guys)’
‘It’s one day at a time’
‘You never know what’s going to happen in the future’
What insecurities are behind them, if they are tests?
This is great stuff.
Ok, if a girl mentions a boyfriend in my presence, I’m done with my pursuit. Maybe it’s a shit test, maybe it’s not. I don’t care. That’s too much testing if it is in fact testing. Why would I want to date a girl who’s testing that hard right off the bat?
I have had my heart ripped out of my chest with rejection a few times by trying to date women who were either (I now suspect) dating and sleeping with a boyfriend or just getting over a recent ex-boyfriend. These women are bad news. They will allow you to pursue them, make you feel rejection, and all the while never tell you the real story…that they have strong feelings for another man.
Besides, if she mentions a boyfriend when you meet her, is that not female code for “I’m just not that into you”???? Or perhaps, she really does have a boyfriend! Don’t give her the ego boost she hasn’t earned by continuing to pursue her.
Women are shit, this is the problem in society today….they have all this inflated sense of themselves and can’t help but play games, they get a guy who is decent and treats them decently and then leaves for some guy who wants to have a threesome on their fucking honeymoon….my message to women…grow the fuck up and stop being douchebags
i Love women but my happiness came after my marriage in loving myself and doing things for myself like learning my grandfathers instrument (guitar) i am still learning and pursuing a degree in history also so i can work in a museum yes i would like to find a passionate woman who shares my interests however i speak my mind and demand the utmost honest upfront in a woman i do not play games
I have one shit test for girls: When the check comes, does she reach for her purse? Don’t worry, I’m paying and I’m not bitching about that part. But it would be nice to at least acknowledge that we could easily spend $400 per month on dinners and drinks if we go out once a week.
But if a girl does pass my shit test….. Well, it’s only happened once or twice so I don’t even know what I would do.
Yup, I’m bitter.
I think this is a great test and I have actually talked about this many times before in both my newsletters and on my blog. BUT this may not necessarily mean that she is a gold digger or of bad character, it may mean she was brought up differently. It may be in her experience that it is rude to offer to pay on a first date with a man. Again, all tests are great but they don’t have to be deal breakers.
Greg, I totally understand your frustration because I hear it and fix it every day with my clients. If you want to work together one on one we can make a few small tweaks on your approach and get those hot girls you are going after. Trust me they will not be faking anything when I through with you. Just send me an email to marni@winggirlmethod.com.