The Female Perspective On First Dates
13. Feb, 2012 
124 Comments
The Female Perspective On First Dates.
I like to have my GF’s over a few nights a month for a good ol’ girls night. Nothing big. Just some wine, a few snacks and great conversation.
They always know that I am going to bring up something for them to discuss that I will share with you. So this week we discussed, first dates.
Here are a few outtakes from the evenings conversation.
1. Jennifer (31) says: A Man Should Always Plan The First Date
“I hate when a guy picks me up and says so what do you want to do? You know what I want to do, I want to go home WITHOUT YOU!!!. I love when a guy says to me I am picking you up at 7, dress casual and be ready to have a good time.”
2. Jessica (34) says: Don’t Wine and Dine
“Listen, if the guy is super rich and a 5 star restaurant is his version of Red Lobster then by all means wine and dine. But for me, I don’t need a guy to go bankrupt to show me a good time. For the first date I usually prefer drinks or a coffee or something light and fun.”
3. Christina (27) says: Men Should Always Pay For The First Date
“I know that a lot of other male experts say men shouldn’t have to pay for the first date but they should. Just like Jessica said, they don’t need to go bankrupt paying for the date but they do need to be a gentlemen and pay for me on that first date. I am sorry but they do or else I think there is something wrong with them. After that first date we can take turns but that first date is a must.”
4. Marni (29) says: Make Me Feel Like A Woman
“I love when a guy opens the car door for me. I am independent, I run my own business and I am strong but I love to feel feminine and dainty. ”
5. Ellen (43) says: Don’t Brag
“I have been on a million dates throughout my life and the ones that I disliked the most involved men who bragged about themselves. How much money they had, how strong they were. It was the biggest turn off in the world. I know they thought they were selling me on themselves but all they were doing was driving a bigger wedge between us. A real man does not need to brag because he knows what he has and when he knows it I can sense it.
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#6
Have something to say.
““I love when a guy opens the car door for me. I am independent, I run my own business and I am strong but I love to feel feminine and dainty. ””
Isn’t this hypocritical?
How can I respect your independence and femininity at the same time?
Also a side question- why do only fat girls like me?
“Just like Jessica said, they don’t need to go bankrupt paying for the date but they do need to be a gentlemen and pay for me on that first date. I am sorry but they do or else I think there is something wrong with them”
What kind of logic is this routed in? Or do you just say it because “that’s the way it is” ?
“Isn’t this hypocritical?
How can I respect your independence and femininity at the same time?”
I feel like it’s 2012 on M-F, between 9 to 5, but afterwards we’re back in medieval times, speaking of which, how is that for a first date? – Since you love to feel like a lady.
SKW,
Must you challenge everything?
Women like all people have different sides to them, She’s saying she’s independent but at the same time, wants a man to open the door for her. Sure you can probably cook for yourself, but wouldn’t it be nice if a woman did the cooking for you once in a while?
Fat girls, ugly girls, hot girls, sexy girls..it’s all the same SKW. Some women probably wonder why “only fat guys like them”
Stop over analyzing everything and just have a conversation with a woman…it’s not that hard! Ask a question, listen to her response then say something based on what she said…it’s not that hard, you are making it hard.
I think people are drawn toward others with a similar level of self esteem.
“Women like all people have different sides to them, She’s saying she’s independent but at the same time, wants a man to open the door for her.”
That’s like saying she likes her vodka straight up, with a little bit of ice. The two are incompatible, to me.
” Sure you can probably cook for yourself, but wouldn’t it be nice if a woman did the cooking for you once in a while?”
It would be, but if I expected it, and judged her based on her ability and willingness to do it, it’s something different, isn’t it?
These were positioned as RULES, not suggestions.
“Stop over analyzing everything and just have a conversation with a woman…it’s not that hard! Ask a question, listen to her response then say something based on what she said…it’s not that hard, you are making it hard.”
I do that all the time, what does that have to do with my questions here about hypocrisy?
and what’s the over analyzing here? All Im asking for is a woman to like me for me, not whether I open doors for her, which Im sure an independent woman is capable of, or pay for a $5 coffee, which Im sure she’s also capable of.
If a women in general don’t like you for you, then work on yourself.
of course she is capable of opening a door for herself and buying herself coffee…If you do it for her, she will feel special and therefore will want to suck your cock all that much more. Just pay for the damn coffee and open the door SKW, it’s not going to kill you.
Oh I see, so you open doors and pay for coffee’s because you’re expecting a cock-sucking in return?
It’s not going to kill her either, that’s the whole point, isn’t it? Why do we play these stupid bullshit games now? It’s like saying ‘god bless you’ after you sneeze,
sure at one point people thought sneezing meant you had a demon in you, now we know different. It’s ok to say it, but I don’t get the idiots that say “you have to say god bless you.” It’s like, at some point aren’t we as a society gonna start using our brains?
Why can’t you just take Marni’s advice and apply it?
what advice? opening doors? paying for dates?
I’ve done all of that already.
My opinion is that asking women what they want isn’t all that useful. Why? Because often they don’t really know, and they also (in the nicest possible sense of the word) lie. Ever hear a woman say that she likes to be chased? Ever chase her? Guess what happened.
I once asked a female friend why nobody was responding to my online dating messages and she said “women want to feel beautiful… but they don’t want to be approached just because of their looks.” Women are very good at giving men contradictory statements that aren’t actionable. A bunch of things a guy mustn’t do that all cancel each other out.
“Don’t make a woman feel as though you’re trying to buy her.” “Pay for the first date.”
This is why the PUA movement is so successful with men. They say “Ignore what the women tell you to do, do this instead – it works.”
More valuable is the feedback. Ladies, what turned you on and what gave you the ick? I will be doing what I know will make you feel good, not what you tell me to do.
“My opinion is that asking women what they want isn’t all that useful. Why? ”
Aren’t you saying tacitly then, this blog post is more or less, useless ?
No.
If the blog post is a summary of what women want (in a first date) and you’ve also stated an opinion that:
“My opinion is that asking women what they want isn’t all that useful.”
It stands to reason that this post isn’t all that useful. There’s a logical rule called modus ponens:
“If P -> Q, P. P->Q” so if you posit a rule that asking women what they want isn’t all that useful, and here we have an instantiation of women stating rules for what they want, it, but the rule, implies it is not all that useful.
No, is a word used to indicate disagreement, I think the word you were looking for is “yes”
This is why women don’t like you. and probably a lot of guys don’t like you either.
Arguing with someone, and then quoting some logical principle to prove them wrong, is a turn off, even to guys.
There is no way in hell you’re going to get any pussy thinking like that. You need to drop this rigid logical rules bullshit and realize that when someone says that they aren’t doing something, maybe they aren’t.
The P -> Q shit isn’t gonna get you any pussy man. You are way too anal and in fact, you remind me of someone I know who is the exact same way, and his ability to relate to most people is severely flawed because he holds on to the same type of ridiculous rules and refuses to let go.
“This is why women don’t like you.”
Right, so its got nothing to do with the way I look, that I dont make lots of dough, and I don’t really know/care about fashion and style?
“Arguing with someone, and then quoting some logical principle to prove them wrong, is a turn off, even to guys.”
Right of course, who needs logic? certainly not you, who is infact using logic to tell me why logic is gonna turn women off.
Ok so you guys are totally fighting like little kids right now and it’s really amusing, but honestly it just seems like A) you guys have no experience with girls or B) you seem to think everything is based off of logic…. sorry if I’m wrong about that but it’s just my overall impression. And as to the logic, yeah it has pretty much nothing to do with what women want, how they feel or react to you, or even their actions….same with men. Ah but please don’t feel offended or anything. I’m just trying to configure my thoughts into words….or something…..idk I’m just laughing too hard at your comments….
Kevin:
I wonder what if on another board there was a post like this:
———————————————–
I like to have my boys over a few nights a month for a good ol’ guys night. Nothing big. Just some beer, potato chips, and a few words exchanged.
They always know that I am going try and light my own farts, but for some reason, this week we discussed, first dates.
Here are a few outtakes from the evenings conversation.
1. Bob (31) says: A woman should always do whatever the guy wants.
“I love it when a girl just shuts the fuck up and listens to me!”
2. Chris (27) says: Women should split the first date.
“Women want to be treated as equals the should act as equals”
4. Marty (29) says: Make Me Feel Like A Man
“I love when a girl sucks my dick all night long, cooks for me, then rubs my back”
5. Allen (43) says: Don’t Brag
“A real woman doesn’t need to brag about her doorman apartment building, her super duper career that she resents anyway because she wants really to be that married woman with a family that she’s been told to not want because she has to be independent”
@skw Thank you for being one of the few people to call out women on their self-serving, hypocritical bullshit. You ever notice how only women are supposed to get special perks and how only men have a rigid, carved-in-stone set of standards to which they must adhere or be confined to the dark netherworld of datelessness?
Okay I have been silent long enough. SKW and anyone who feels similar to SKW please go to another site. This site is obviously NOT for you. My beliefs and those who come to this site is to learn about how the two sexes can better communicate. Please go find a site where you can bash and hate women and blame them for all of your shortcomings.
I’m not sure you understand what my site is all about it and if you did you would not be filling it with your bullshit. I can respect other peoples POV’s but when it starts to cloud clear minds, that’s when I have to step in.
Please no longer comment on my site unless it to comment on the fact that you are starting to open up and see that all relationships are two sided and that one side is not to blame.
I am sorry that you feel the world is so against you and that women are to blame. I am sorry that you waste your time on commenting on this site instead of being out in the real world interacting with people and women.
And I am very sorry that my words stir up this anger in you so much. But please, go find somewhere else to waste your time because it is no longer welcome on my site.
Thank you Marni for saying that. I really hope they listen and become more open-minded.
Will,
What you say is true, but I think the world is basically balanced. Here’s what I mean. I’ve seen women do some STUPID ASS MOTHERF$*@$(#ING SH@T for guys they like. (by the way, no anger directed at you here, Im just trying to get my point across)
Ever see the movie casino? where sharon stone’s hooker character owns vegas, rejects EVERYONE, but turns into a mush of sh*t when she’s around her ex-boyfriend (played by James Woods) and can’t seem to act normal around her. That’s pretty much how it is in real life.
Here’s my theory, and it’s just a theory, but women (especially attractive ones) reject guys ALL THE F*CKING TIME. they do it so much, and subconsciously it probably takes a toll on them (although I still think it’s lesser damaging than BEING rejected all the time, but thats a diff story)
But they do it so much, and for some I even agree, it might feel genuinely bad for them to do it. SO when they’re around somone they like, it’s like all the good vibes they had towards the guys they rejected are channeled into THAT ONE GUY. and she will fly around the world in the opposite direction (like superman does here:
http://youtu.be/UwG5CnrwRQI
and reverse time and do all kinds of stupid shit for this guy.
and believe me, I’ve seen some smart women do some really REALLY messed up stuff.
@S
@SKW and @Will
I don’t know why you’re being so passive-aggressive about this, but you are.
First off, nobody HAS to do anything, no man HAS to open doors, on man HAS to pay for a first date, and no man HAS to be a certain thing, look a certain way or have a certain balance in his bank account, but it’s only fair than that no woman HAS to react a certain way (i.e. affection, love sex).
@SKW, you’ve made that point yourself asking “Also a side question- why do only fat girls like me?”, clearly you don’t find fat girls attractive, neither do I. But the point is women don’t have HAVE to look a certain way, but we don’t HAVE to find them sexually attractive
Nobody has an obligation to please anyone, but that works both ways. Now to be honest, I think you do raise some good points, but you’re doing it in a very crappy, offensive way that does not really lend itself to debate. And that’s really pointless.
I really felt the need to say something not b/c I have a dog in this fight, but b/c I’ve in the same place with all these questions, but I’m positive there’s a better way to get answers
“My beliefs and those who come to this site is to learn about how the two sexes can better communicate. Please go find a site where you can bash and hate women and blame them for all of your shortcomings.”
It’s too bad you feel this way, and its sad that any criticism at all is called “bashing and hating” I’m not criticising women any more than you criticize men. of course it’s your forum and this is not a democracy, but please don’t walk away thinking you’re being honest or fair or objective in your appraisal of my comments.
“Nobody has an obligation to please anyone, but that works both ways. Now to be honest, I think you do raise some good points, but you’re doing it in a very crappy, offensive way that does not really lend itself to debate.”
How should I raise them? and will I even be allowed to raise them?
I completely agree, it does work both ways. But don’t you think society accepts it when women levy their demands but calls it sexist when men do ?
@SKW dude the way you present you criticism is indeed in the form of “bashing and hating”. They are formed rudely and they aren’t in the least giving any good points for debate. Sure people criticize men and women alike, but often they at least try and put some effort into making it so that they don’t sound completely sexist. You also need to realize that it is not entirely possible to be “fair” when someone appraises your comments. However, they can be honest, perhaps not to you, but to themselves. Also, I have to agree with whoever said it that you don’t raise points an a way that lend themselves to debate. If you’re going to raise them, do it in a way that doesn’t sound rude or utterly offensive. Instead, think them out and write them articulately so that they are understood but still present you point. There’s no one stopping you from raising them, we just wish for you to raise them better.
“But don’t you think society accepts it when women levy their demands but calls it sexist when men do?”
This is a good point and I agree that it may actually occur, however, it is not something we can easily change, since it is a wide-spread problem of society.
“I’m not sure you understand what my site is all about it and if you did you would not be filling it with your bullshit. I can respect other peoples POV’s but when it starts to cloud clear minds, that’s when I have to step in.”
Whose “clear mind” have I clouded?
there are lots of people here that have actually agreed and said I bring out valid points, Mark, for example. But it’s easier to call it “bullshit”
I’m equally sorry you haven’t experienced the true pain of repeated rejection over and over, and lived in a society that keeps telling you to “go for it!” and “be direct in2012!” when all you do is rack up rejections.
“My beliefs and those who come to this site is to learn about how the two sexes can better communicate.”
Really? Let’s just have a look at a few of your product names:
“How to become a man women want”
“Confidence Booster Package”
“Wing Girl Super Sexy, Super Hot Transformation Package” and this one starts out with:
“I am not going to lie. Looks are important to women, just not as important as you think. ”
How about from your own bio:
“My job is to tell you everything about women so that you can meet, attract, date, seduce and be with the women you want.”
“I have successfully done this for almost a decade. I have helped thousands of men all over the world get everything they want with women and now it’s your turn.”
Seems to me like you’re targeting men, and basically saying you can help them get women. Not too much there about having the “two sexes communicating better”
Also, you talk about
“see that all relationships are two sided and that one side is not to blame.”
Yet in your own “help me eyes video” how do you end it? you say,
“and suddenly her friend comes in….. well, you my friend have fallen victim to the help me eyes, and it wasn’t that annoying friend that ruined your chances and your perfect game [with a derogatory little head shake here].. it was you.”
Tell me, now who’s blaming who here?
Never mind the unfairness of how we as men even have to develop a “perfect game” in the first place, while women get to sit back and just flick their eyes- won’t even get into that.
You got me!! So SKW – tell me again why you come to my site
I know why I’m here but I’m not really sure why you are. Have a great weekend!
Ever see the shawshank redemption?
“Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.”
That’s one reason. Another one is maybe just maybe, you might actually benefit and change your own thinking. That maybe, just maybe, simply spouting out “believe in yourself!” over and over may not cut it.. for some of us anyway.
fair enough BUT I’ve been where you and I will never go back there. I believe in myself, YES, but more importantly I can finally see other people.
“fair enough BUT I’ve been where you and I will never go back there.”
Hmm, sorry, not sure what you mean here, can you explain? where exactly have you “been” that you consider it to be where I am?
@SKW, what do you mean when you say “I completely agree, it does work both ways. But don’t you think society accepts it when women levy their demands but calls it sexist when men do ?”
surely I’ve ran into that kind of thinking, but is it mainstream? hardly, society CATERS to men’s want in terms of media. And nobody should be allowed to tell you to lower your standards for the sake of romance. I’m not familiar with Marni’s material really, but I’d assume she’d agree. Romance is subject to preferences on both sides, and I’ve been rejected for not fulfilling certain preferences, and I’ve rejected for not getting certain preferences.
In general, yes, as men we’re gonna get rejected more often. Is it the short end of the stick, maybe, but we’re not the ones having to get pregnant and gestate for 9 months. And I’m a very big supporters of school that claim that sex is, first and foremost, motivated by the possibility of conception and reproduction. I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t make that trade, EVER.
Now, should women be educated about how to communicate with men? maybe, but will it help? not really. Well, it would help to those women who are also rejected constantly, but that isn’t the kind of women we’d go for ANYWAYS.
There’s equality among genders, but there’s no equivocation, women can be equal to men socially and legally but not psychologically or physiologically. Marni’s advice, or seduction advice in general (hopefully my post doesn’t get deleted for this equivocation :-#), is no more useless or wrong than interview advice, or debate advice. There is something YOU WANT, and if YOU want it, you’ll need to make it get to you.
But women don’t just laze around at all, I would go on a long-shot and say that if you spend as much time preparing for interactions with women as women do with men (makeup, gym, talks to girlfriends, cloths’ shopping) but just in a masculine way (i.e. capitalize on the traits that make men attractive to women), there would be some result.
On a completely different note, Marni, why is there no forum to this site? forums are wonderful things, you should make a forum.
““I completely agree, it does work both ways. But don’t you think society accepts it when women levy their demands but calls it sexist when men do ?””
What I mean is in our society, I couldn’t go to “polite company” and talk about how I want to just fuck hot women with big tits, and how women should cook me dinner at least 3 times a week, without it being sexist… where as women can talk about “a guy has to pay for the first date, he has to buy me stuff on valentines day or I run for the hills…” and thats ay-ok.
“In general, yes, as men we’re gonna get rejected more often. Is it the short end of the stick, maybe, but we’re not the ones having to get pregnant and gestate for 9 month”
Listen- you can’t compare biological truths to quasi-science backed up facts. I think it’s pretty indisputable that women have to bear the burden of having children, but men didn’t ask for that? Secondly, if we’re going to use the pregnancy characteristic, why should women even work at all? or vote? or do anything that implies they are an independent free thinking entity? shouldn’t they just raise children and support their men emotionally? The entire feminist movement should be flushed down the toilet then.
“But women don’t just laze around at all, I would go on a long-shot and say that if you spend as much time preparing for interactions with women as women do with men (makeup, gym, talks to girlfriends, cloths’ shopping) but just in a masculine way (i.e. capitalize on the traits that make men attractive to women), there would be some result.”
I disagree, I think the amount of time women spend on fashion, makeup, etc.. FAR EXCEEDS the minimum bar to attract men, after a while it’s to make other women jealous. I don’t give two shits if her fingernails match her eyeliner match her lipstick…
Secondly, the preparation that men have to do is… well, not clear cut, for women, say what you want about it, it’s pretty clear cut, look hot, be fuckable. that’s pretty much it.
for guys, first its, look hot, then it’s make money, then it’s dont be the nice guy, then it’s cocky and funny, then it’s…. never ends.. does it?
Also, I don’t see how you can say the genders are equal socially and legally but not psychologically, when social and even to some extent legal divisions are influenced heavily by our psychological makeup.
SKW,
If according to you, all women want a handsome guy with a giant cock and loads of cash, who is a total jerk. Then why are you here? What motivates you to consitantly keep trying to get people to see your point?
Ever buy one of Marni’s products?
“Also, I don’t see how you can say the genders are equal socially and legally but not psychologically, when social and even to some extent legal divisions are influenced heavily by our psychological makeup.”
- That’s kind of easy, in terms of the way the society is build, we strive to offer everyone the same protection and the same access to opportunities. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that psychological differences affect everything b/c the way a person responds to dating would have very little effect on their ability to perform heart surgery or file forms. Social divisions are effected to an extent by our psychological makeup, but we strive to base it on commonalities rather than differences; e.g. we don’t really consider what serial killers think about killing when we make laws against it.
“I disagree, I think the amount of time women spend on fashion, makeup, etc.. FAR EXCEEDS the minimum bar to attract men, after a while it’s to make other women jealous. I don’t give two shits if her fingernails match her eyeliner match her lipstick…”
- You are correct in saying that the amount of time women spend far exceeds the MINIMUM BAR. However, “good enough” is only really good enough if everyone that is good enough gets their reward. Sadly, it is physically impossible for the highest value men in society to have sex with all women who would like them, there’s physical boundaries that cannot be exceeded. So as you say, women have to compete with each other. “Good enough” isn’t good enough anymore if only the best are chosen. Which also applies to how men should compete with other men.
- “I think it’s pretty indisputable that women have to bear the burden of having children, but men didn’t ask for that?”
No they didn’t but it’s part of the playing-field. Women (and females in general) need to consider carefully whom to have sex with b/c they get the shorter end of the stick at worst case. They need to, in essence, pick the “best” worst-case scenario. I know this doesn’t apply to our society so much, especially with the laws around child support. But that only happened in the past 100 years or so. You can’t ignore evolutionary guiding forces if you’re gonna talk about sex
“Secondly, if we’re going to use the pregnancy characteristic, why should women even work at all? or vote? or do anything that implies they are an independent free thinking entity? shouldn’t they just raise children and support their men emotionally?”
- Why should they? they don’t have to. But why shouldn’t the if they want to… they’re not pregnant all the time, and if as a society can get more working force why not?
I don’t think it’s right to use social standards for dating b/c social standards are based around political correctness that romance is not. Just like men can be leaders in dating but work for a female CEO so can women be independent workers and girl in dating. It’s different contexts.
“What I mean is in our society, I couldn’t go to “polite company” and talk about how I want to just fuck hot women with big tits, and how women should cook me dinner at least 3 times a week, without it being sexist… where as women can talk about “a guy has to pay for the first date, he has to buy me stuff on valentines day or I run for the hills…” and thats ay-ok.”
- I think “polite company” would find your language more disturbing than your content. I can’t think of anyone in their right mind that would hold it against you if you say given a choice between a beautiful woman and an ugly one (all else being equal) you’d pick the beautiful one 100% of the time.
I think you’re thinking is still not pointing in the right direction and that’s evident by your choice of words, if a women were to say “a guy HAS to pay for the first date, he HAS to buy me stuff on valentines day or I run for the hills”, she isn’t saying it’s a set in stone rule, it’s personal preference, and she has every right to hold it, you don’t have an obligation to fulfill it, but she has no obligation to be politically correct about her preferences.
“for guys, first its, look hot, then it’s make money, then it’s dont be the nice guy, then it’s cocky and funny, then it’s…. never ends.. does it?”
- yes, but no. It does end, it ends when you can attract the kind of girl you want. “Look hot” isn’t first, yes looks help you and if you are a good looking man you’re gonna have a much easier time approaching girls, is it a deal-breaker if you’re not Brad Pitt? hardly
I think it’s more like a point system (that changes depending on context of one-night-stand, relationship, etc’). You need to add up to a total, but you can draw points from different categories. Looks, humor, tact, voice, body language, grooming, etc’. You just need to find what you can capitalize on.
Have you ever done martial arts of any sort?
“SKW,
If according to you, all women want a handsome guy with a giant cock and loads of cash, who is a total jerk. Then why are you here? What motivates you to consitantly keep trying to get people to see your point?
Ever buy one of Marni’s products?”
never in a million yrs would I buy one of her products, no offense but it would be like flushing money down the toilet.
Didnt I answer the “why am I here” question already?
“That’s kind of easy, in terms of the way the society is build, we strive to offer everyone the same protection and the same access to opportunities. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that psychological differences affect everything b/c the way a person responds to dating would have very little effect on their ability to perform heart surgery or file forms. Social divisions are effected to an extent by our psychological makeup, but we strive to base it on commonalities rather than differences; e.g. we don’t really consider what serial killers think about killing when we make laws against it.”
Yes, of course if you’re talking about basic safety needs and physical security, of course, there should be gender neutrality.
I’m talking about the ways in which society dictates how the genders relate to each other.
For example, to me it’s hypocritical to say men and women should earn the same dollar for the same job and also say that men should pay for women on dates, gifts, etc etc..
The money a man makes is the same money he spends on women. If a woman is making the same money as a man, and is granted the same opportunities, then ideologically why does she need to be provided for (which the ‘let me buy you a drink’ is rooted in, a sense of men providing for women)
“You can’t ignore evolutionary guiding forces if you’re gonna talk about sex”
Fair enough. then men should be allowed to have affairs with other women while they’re in relationships, after all they’re just following their evolutionary instinct to mate with as many women as possible. And there should be no argument or discord from a woman if a man “cheats.”
“is it a deal-breaker if you’re not Brad Pitt?”
Again, saying that looks matters a lot is not saying you must be brad pitt. but you can’t be mr. pitt either. As for the point system, yes I think you’re right, but looks is WEIGHTED heavily
it’s a WEIGHTED point system
“I think “polite company” would find your language more disturbing than your content. I can’t think of anyone in their right mind that would hold it against you if you say given a choice between a beautiful woman and an ugly one (all else being equal) you’d pick the beautiful one 100% of the time.”
well “ugly” is a pretty derogatory term. but even saying toning it down and saying physically attractiveness is important to me I think would have me labelled “superficial” at best. The requirements about women doing “traditional” things like cooking, cleaning, laundry, house keeping, would have me labelled “sexist” in an instant.
” if a women were to say “a guy HAS to pay for the first date, he HAS to buy me stuff on valentines day or I run for the hills”, she isn’t saying it’s a set in stone rule,”
well it depends how they say it, of course NOTHING is set in stone. You could walk in the middle of the street while it’s a green light, you might get hit by a BUS, but you’re free to do it.
you could also run into the empire state building with a bomb strapped to your chest, you’d likely get your head ripped off, but hey you could do it.
There are no set in stone rules when it comes to personal choice. Just choice and consequences.
The point is that MANY women have the preference of wanting to be paid for on dates, and there is strength in numbers. When a woman told me “a guy has to pay and all the girls I know say the same thing” what she is tacitly saying is… “you better pay if you want to get anywhere”
I thought that was obvious, yet you still keep talking about some context independent vacuum where “everyone can make there own choice”
The point is, choice and consequence. And I challenge you to ask any woman if they enjoy “beautifying themselves” to meet male standards of attraction.
“For example, to me it’s hypocritical to say men and women should earn the same dollar for the same job and also say that men should pay for women on dates, gifts, etc etc.”
- I see what you’re saying here, but I think it could also work like this: In a culture where men make significantly more than women, it would be unfair to expect women to go dutch regarding dates. It would be a man’s OBLIGATION to pay for a woman. But then, he cannot be praiseworthy for doing that, or at least not to the same extent as in a culture where the woman can fully support herself just as well as a man.
To be honest I can’t argue too far on this point b/c I don’t believe in man having to pay for the first date. I’d say a man should only pay for a first date if he can get a second date without having to pay for the first (i.e. you’re not buying her).
“Fair enough. then men should be allowed to have affairs with other women while they’re in relationships, after all they’re just following their evolutionary instinct to mate with as many women as possible. And there should be no argument or discord from a woman if a man “cheats.””
- Cheating implies going behind someone’s back, which I am fundamentally against, but I’ve seen people in open relationships and have been in those myself (not very often though) so that possibility DOES exist. It all comes back to freedom to have standards. If a woman wants you to be only hers or not at all, she has that right, you don’t have to choose her. If that’s what you’re looking for, there isn’t anything wrong with that, but you still gotta be able to attract the women you want.
“it’s a WEIGHTED point system”
- Ok so? just milk all the points you can and see how far that gets you, first reach 100% of your potential, than talk about it being enough or not.
“but even saying toning it down and saying physically attractiveness is important to me I think would have me labelled “superficial” at best. The requirements about women doing “traditional” things like cooking, cleaning, laundry, house keeping, would have me labelled “sexist” in an instant.”
- I would add to that that if you expect a woman that is a stay-at-home-wife, you need to be prepared to assume your traditional role as a breadwinner in the house. Those women DO exist probably still, but I don’t think you want them.
If you’re in a company that puts you down for having more appreciation for women that cook over those that don’t (again, all else being equal), or more appreciation for better looking women, you’re hanging out with hippies.
“When a woman told me “a guy has to pay and all the girls I know say the same thing” what she is tacitly saying is… “you better pay if you want to get anywhere””
- and she would be wrong…
“And I challenge you to ask any woman if they enjoy “beautifying themselves” to meet male standards of attraction.”
- NOW we’re getting somewhere. No, they don’t, but they do it anyway. why? b/c they know they are in competition with each other and they need to put effort to win.
So yes, we can all declare these mind and beauty games to be a silly waste of energy, and decide we will instead like to see each other’s average selfs, and hey for some ppl that might work. Of course once a single person breaks that deal the race starts all over.
The race is always on, and everyone that thinks the prize is worth it is preparing and running.
My point really isn’t to choose sides here b/c I do disagree with some points Marni makes. But the bigger picture is that she has a business that teaches men how to meet women and get somewhere beyond the “Friends Zone”. You have something you want, meet quality, smart, beautiful women, and there’s services that do that for you.
I don’t know how that became about running into empire state with explosives, I think that’s very peripheral to the argument.
We both agree that there is choice.
Beyond that, I think it’s important we don’t lose focus on what we’re actually debating here so let me just recap the point I’m trying to make and hopefully you’ll do the same so we can see if we’re even on the same topic.
- Marni’s post gives you insight into what women might want, is it the end all and be all? no, is it something worth considering, yes… very yes
- Women are pickier than men b/c biologically speaking, they have a bigger stake. Society makes it less so, but our mind just didn’t catch up with any of that.
- Everyone, man or woman, is entitled to have their own standards with regards to romance, if you’re not up to the standards, you don’t have basis to complain unless you’re willing to have sex with any woman (“any” implies one that has all infections possible), which you clearly are not
- You’re language is being very disrespectful, which I don’t is useful in a context where everyone is trying to learn and understand, which this is what this site is
“- I see what you’re saying here, but I think it could also work like this: In a culture where men make significantly more than women, it would be unfair to expect women to go dutch regarding dates. It would be a man’s OBLIGATION to pay for a woman. But then, he cannot be praiseworthy for doing that, or at least not to the same extent as in a culture where the woman can fully support herself just as well as a man.”
What? this is the tipping argument, and it’s circular.
For example, why do we tip waiters an automatic 15% regardless of service, because we live in a culture where waiters get taxed for their tips (ie its assumed they receive them) then they no longer are tips (discretionary spending from the customer for exceptional service, it’s automatic) You can’t use the fact that “we live in a culture” as a justification of continued behavior.
“I would add to that that if you expect a woman that is a stay-at-home-wife, you need to be prepared to assume your traditional role as a breadwinner in the house.”
Agreed. but 9 times out of 10 this isn’t the case, the women are happy to have the man continue a traditional role, where as they themselves are not.
“I don’t know how that became about running into empire state with explosives, I think that’s very peripheral to the argument.
We both agree that there is choice.”
We got there because you insist on repeatedly telling me that “you’re not OBLIGED” etc etc. and I understand no one is OBLIGED to do anything, just like no one is OBLIGED to even follow laws that have existed for 400 years, just be prepared to accept consequences.
Ok, so let’s look at your final points:
“- Marni’s post gives you insight into what women might want, is it the end all and be all? no, is it something worth considering, yes… very yes”
Her post doesn’t have any “might” associated with it, you seem to be a stickler about language, let’s look at the language:
->I hate when a guy picks me up and says so what do you want to do? You know what I want to do, I want to go home WITHOUT YOU!!!.
->but they do need to be a gentlemen and pay for me on that first date. I am sorry but they do or else I think there is something wrong with them.
->A real man does not need to brag because he knows what he has and when he knows it I can sense it
Do these sound like “just an opinion” to you? You seem like an intellectually honest person so please look at these statements honestly. There’s no “might” about them, these are being positioned exactly AS the end all and be all.
Now, I get that she didnt make all these statements herself, but it’s her post and she’s choosing what to display and what not to display.
“- Women are pickier than men b/c biologically speaking, they have a bigger stake. Society makes it less so, but our mind just didn’t catch up with any of that.”
I agree partially. But here I think again it’s selective. Women are somehow allowed the explanation of evolutionary impulses to their behavior, where as if men use the same rationale for their behavior (read discussion on cheating, it’s met with disdain, scorn, etc..)
“Cheating implies going behind someone’s back, which I am fundamentally against,”
That’s my whole point, if we lived in a balanced society, men wouldn’t have to “cheat” they could just have sex with whoever they wanted without any societal reprecussion of it being called “cheating” Yet for us to exert our own evolutionary impulse we *HAVE* to go behind their back and “cheat”
“- Everyone, man or woman, is entitled to have their own standards with regards to romance, if you’re not up to the standards, you don’t have basis to complain unless you’re willing to have sex with any woman (“any” implies one that has all infections possible), which you clearly are not”
alright I dont know why you continue to say this, I never said people couldn’t have choice and preference, it’s only the imbalanced way in which society “sanctions” one set of choices vs another (ie society gives permission to women to have their set of requirements freely, where as men are not given that freedom)
- You’re language is being very disrespectful, which I don’t is useful in a context where everyone is trying to learn and understand, which this is what this site is
Tough nuggies. I don’t think its disrespectful at all.
“- NOW we’re getting somewhere. No, they don’t, but they do it anyway. why? b/c they know they are in competition with each other and they need to put effort to win.””
I’ve certainly never heard a woman say:
“well we do expect men to pay for stuff, buy us gifts, lead, be strong and masculine, it’s only fair that we have to spend more time on our looks to attract them”
In fact, if anything, it’s regarded as a deterioration of society, as evidenced here:
http://youtu.be/6gkIiV6konY
SKW
Maybe if you put as much time and energy into meeting women as you do posting on this blog, you’d have a girlfriend.
So you’re saying society is unfair for accepting women’s behavior but not men’s?
I don’t know, I think you’re confusing media with real life. Media that targets women will cater to women. Just like porn caters to men.
If you actually know people, not anecdotes but real people, that criticize NORMAL male standards for mates, then you’re hanging out with either too many extreme feminist women, or with some very strange men. You need a change of company.
In essence the point is this; If you want to attract women, then you need to adjust your actions into what attracts women. Is there really another way? Incidentally, despite what you may think, it entails becoming less apologetic and more accepting of your urges, not the other way around. But all the criticism in the world isn’t going to change what women respond to, it won’t and that’s that. If you want more women, you need to become more attractive to women. You have to agree with me on that.
If you don’t agree with changing your actions, then okay, you don’t have to, but the truth and the rules of the game aren’t going to change. And I say this again, what women respond to is not a social convention, the idea that men and women should think and act identically in romance IS.
White Tiger – I honestly love you. That was perfectly said. Thanks for posting that
Gotta go get my saturday fun day on now!
“So you’re saying society is unfair for accepting women’s behavior but not men’s?”
Isn’t that obvious? But that is part of what Im saying.
“I don’t know, I think you’re confusing media with real life. Media that targets women will cater to women. Just like porn caters to men.”
Wait a second. are you comparing a documentary about women’s rights to porn? No wonder marni loves you, you both seem to be on the same level logically.
” If you want to attract women, then you need to adjust your actions into what attracts women. Is there really another way?”
Whatever happened to being yourself? what ever happened to having your own life, making your own decisions, being your own man? Being authentic to your true self?
Let’s go straight to Marni’s bio:
“I want to be very clear with you. I am not a Pick Up Artist. I do not teach routines, lines or any type of manipulation.”
yet you’re advocating just that. paying for a date or buying gifts on Valentines day, is that not a routine ? is that not ultimately rooted in manipulation?
“If you want more women, you need to become more attractive to women. You have to agree with me on that.”
yes I do agree, I mean, all you did was just define the word “attractive”
Its like saying, if you want to make ice cream, you have to get the ingredients for ice cream, get the recipe and follow those instructions – then you’ll have ice cream. yea duh.
the problem is there is not a clear idea being presented on what “more attractive to women” actually means.
Does it mean following the recipe of actions like, “buy shit for women, buy them shit on valentines day, take them out on dates and pay for shit” or does it involve all this “follow your purpose, have your own life, be your own man, be authentic to your true self, bla bla bla stuff”
“And I say this again, what women respond to is not a social convention, the idea that men and women should think and act identically in romance IS.”
I mean ok, you’re arbitrarily pulling stuff out of the air with no backup, I can say that fighitng for women to earn the same amount as men and be given the same opportunities to do thing s that men are clearly better at (math, science, military positions, leadership positions, etc..) is not socialized rather it’s inherent in the brains and these feminists are off their rockers.
I’m fine with changing my actions, if thats what it takes, but if it goes against my true authentic self, then that’s a problem, is it not?
“I’m fine with changing my actions, if thats what it takes, but if it goes against my true authentic self, then that’s a problem, is it not?”
It absolutely is, if it goes against your core values. But the interesting thing is sometimes you may think something goes against your core values, when it doesn’t. You just don’t know if you’re in tune with it until you try it.
I think that because of what you pointed out, that’s the reason there’s so many methods out there. Most of these people aren’t wrong (some are shams, but most aren’t) in the sense that there is only one clear cut method. Different methods cater to men who come with different core values and different motivation. Some methods like Marni’s try their best to have you communicate with women without changing your core self, but just making it more assertive. Some will say you need some canned material as a crutch for when you start, you can’t just start winging things and slowly that stuff seeps into you, transforming you. And some just make you do very strange stuff like NLP which I don’t agree with.
For any method SOME change has to happen b/c without change, outcomes won’t change, but there is a difference between changing whether you open doors to women, using canned openers, or using NLP to borderline hypnotize them.
Marni runs a business, she draws income from selling her product and she believes in it 100%. That’s why there isn’t any “maybe” or “might” in her blog.
Neither does David D, neither do other pick up “gurus”, everyone is going to claim their method is the best. You still have the job of scoping out and finding which method jams best with YOU, but you have to distinguish core ideas from peripheral ones. I don’t think paying for first date is integral to Marni’s material (again, I don’t know 100%, I don’t own any).
It’s just like if you were making ice cream, you have different recipes and different brands of ingredients to choose from, you need to figure out which of those works for you.
I’d guess the things in this post are mostly “spices” to put on something more fundamental. i.e. you CAN pull off a good date without these (except for planning the date, i do think you need a miracle to make a date work without that), but these help once you can do that.
Agreed a lot of it is all about style, personality, and of course the sort of women you want to attract.
You have to lead though, or attraction doesn’t happen.
I also think you have to like women. And by like women I mean like women, not just the idea of having sex with a living breathing woman shaped object.
“And by like women I mean like women, not just the idea of having sex with a living breathing woman shaped object.”
Ok, that’s what its “not”
what IS it then? I don’t like any groups with a blank check without knowing something about them.
I like people that are logical, smart, rational, ….
“It absolutely is, if it goes against your core values. But the interesting thing is sometimes you may think something goes against your core values, when it doesn’t. You just don’t know if you’re in tune with it until you try it.”
hah. I’ve tried and done it many times. I’ve paid for dates, I’ve bought stupid shit on valentines day, I’ve done it all.
“That’s why there isn’t any “maybe” or “might” in her blog.”
You’re the one that said there was.
“I don’t think paying for first date is integral to Marni’s material”
Ok Im sorry, but are you stupid? I mean this in the nicest way, but one of her experts DIRECTLY says this:
“3. Christina (27) says: Men Should Always Pay For The First Date”
I get she didn’t say it her self, but she includes it as one of the top 5 “rules” to follow, so it stands to reason she endorses it, and it’s integral to her ‘material’ I’ll leave her to try and wiggle her way out of that one, if she so pleases.
“It’s just like if you were making ice cream, you have different recipes and different brands of ingredients to choose from, you need to figure out which of those works for you.”
Well, the point is there’s an essentializing going on here. yes there are various types of ice cream, yet ice cream has a certain set of “defining qualities” that make it ice cream. IE without it, it wouldn’t be ice-cream it would be sherbert or just cream or just ice or whatever.
That’s the point you were making, was it not? That to get more women, you have to be “attractive” to them? the implication there is, there’s a certain set of principles that if learned will “work” at getting more women, by being attractive to the majority of women out there.. right?
Especially with all these people here talking about how “inherent” all these behaviors are of women.
“hah. I’ve tried and done it many times. I’ve paid for dates, I’ve bought stupid shit on valentines day, I’ve done it all.”
- okay, so stop doing that if it isn’t working
“You’re the one that said there was [a "maybe" or a "might"].”
- No, I said the ideas expressed here or anywhere else might work, I didn’t say Marni presents them as “might”s
“…but she includes it as one of the top 5 “rules” to…”
- Where is there any implication of “top rules” in this article? some are pivotal, IMO, (like the date planning one), some are peripheral, IMO, (like the date paying ones). These blogs, or other blogs or ebooks or DVDs are not different than any other kind of teaching, it has to be taken in to learn, but with some critical thinking involved. Otherwise it’s regurgitation, not growth.
So yes, there are things that are “essential”, and interestingly enough different instructors will prescribe different things to be essential. Not all will be the same. Some will overlap. Some will be true for the instructors but not for you. You need to find what works for you, and rejection would be involved in that process.
My point is also that you criticize this post unnecessarily as if this stuff will work for no one or that somehow it FORCES men to follow this advice. It’s just that, advice, you don’t have to follow all of it, or any of it, but Marni believes following these ideas would improve your dating life. The post doesn’t imply that these notes are exhaustive either.
“No, I said the ideas expressed here or anywhere else might work, I didn’t say Marni presents them as “might”s”
Ok, now you’re just backtracking, these are your own words:
- Marni’s post gives you insight into what women might want, is it the end all and be all? no, is it something worth considering, yes… very yes
Tell me what is the difference between these two sentences:
1) Marni’s post gives you insight into what women might want, is it the end all and be all? no,
2) Marni presents them as ‘mights’
Without any degree of equivocation, you did assert Marni stated these as “mights” or “suggestions” , which she clearly didn’t.
” It’s just that, advice, you don’t have to follow all of it, or any of it, but Marni believes following these ideas would improve your dating life. ”
Again, how many times must we rehash the same points? YES I UNDERSTAND that no one HAS to do anything.
On this particular issue, you’re just going back and forth, on the one hand you say they are presented as “advice” yet on the other hand you’re implying that they are key ingredients to “becoming attractive”
I mean, Marni definitely is. The phrase “top rules” aren’t used, but just look at the language, they’re written as edicts, “don’t, always, make sure…”
do these sound like “hey maybe you should try this out…”
and no, I dont criticise the points on whether they work or not, I’m just saying IF the “advice” given contravenes my own personal belief system, and supposedly being authentic, and strong in my masculine belief, is what will yield me success with women (according to Marni and others) that is contradictory, or at least appears to be.
And then I had a secondary point regarding the societal sanction these “advice points” get, because honestly, not a stitch of what she says is remotely new, I think you’d agree to that. Perhaps the “dont wine and dine, and the dont brag”
Skw strikes me as the type of guy you see on the news who walks into a yoga class with a machine gun cause it’s all their fault as to why he gets rejected.
Kevin strikes me as a reasonable guy who doesn’t make stupid assumptions about people he doesn’t know. And I’m usually right about this kind of stuff.
Thinking about it, it’s hard to even understand who these “advice rules” might help?
For the people that are OK with paying for dates and setting them up (which incidentally I agree with, the person who asks the other person out, should plan it) these rules dont give them any new info, and for people like me that dont think we ought to because we believe in equality, it’s not like we don’t know that society is tilted towards that direction.
ie that such a “rule” already exists.
@Kevin
you’re not contributing anything
@SKW
maybe, but these ideas that are supposedly very obvious can be very well hidden from some people. The date planning point, was an “ah ha” for me back when I first was told about it, maybe I was stupid, but it was. So was the “don’t wine and dine”, and “make me feel like a woman”. So in response to your question, it’s for people like me.
You get a lot of conflicting messages, some say pay for dates, some say don’t, some say treat her like a lady, some say spank her ass on the first sign of brattiness, and everyone swears by their rules. You still need to do critical reading and find what aligns with you.
with regards to paying for dates, which we’ve dissected from every possible angle, I’d say the idea is that paying for the first date can score brownie points, but only if it comes from a frame of non-supplementing, i.e. you would have been just as fine without paying for the date.
Now to more practical ideas, where are you from? city-wise. I’m asking b/c many cities in the US and Canada have developed a group of guys wanting to improve in dating and they’re called lairs.
SKW, If you don’t at least pay for the first date, you look cheap. I heard a woman say “If I go dutch, I don’t go back”. You cannot change people, so stop trying too change the “rules” and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Stop jerking off and pay for a few dates. It’s not the end of the world.
“@Kevin
you’re not contributing anything”
That’s not true, this forum can only handle so much actual intellectual discussion. we need a counter balance.
“The date planning point, was an “ah ha” for me back when I first was told about it, maybe I was stupid, but it was. So was the “don’t wine and dine”, and “make me feel like a woman”. So in response to your question, it’s for people like me.”
Fair enough, but I think you’re the minority. The planning one is pretty obvious to me, I mean, I plan activities that I suggest to people that I have no sexual interest in. It’s just kind of obvious that you’re responsible for planning if you initiate.
“Dont wine and dine” – I never heard a woman say this, I think what they really mean is, “dont wine and dine if all you want is sex because I’ve been wined and dined so much already that I know what you’re up to”
“You get a lot of conflicting messages, some say pay for dates, some say don’t, some say treat her like a lady, some say spank her ass on the first sign of brattiness, and everyone swears by their rules. You still need to do critical reading and find what aligns with you.”
Yeah, whats that got to do with the one-sided nature of this forum post?
Every thing I said about the absolute, declarative, nature of the post is 100% true, they are presented as edicts. You can’t deny that, and neither can Marni. And yes, before you say it for the umpteenth time, I can choose to ignore them.
“I’d say the idea is that paying for the first date can score brownie points, but only if it comes from a frame of non-supplementing, i.e. you would have been just as fine without paying for the date.”
Completely illogical. what do you mean “you would have been just fine” if I would have been “just fine” then why would I pay?!?!? the only reason I would pay is because she expects me to.
By the way, I’ve worked with another coach a little bit, who in my opinion is superior to Marni, Marni seems like a person with genuine interest to help, but just not equipped to actually do it, or the people that do get helped just need to be reminded of obvious things, I mean sh*t, I can do that.
A lot of this “a guy must” women come out with and guys get obessed with chasing is just window dressing. If she’s attracted to you it just doesn’t matter.
I once had a really cute woman chasing me around, and obviously into me, and she spent the whole conversation talking about her valentines day options, the three guys who had offered to take her out for dinner. She wanted a rich guy, she told me, and I kept teasing her by telling her these guys all sounded great, and which was she going to choose; which one was richest?
Then I said, “it’s getting late, let’s go for something to eat”. It’s that easy. We got pizza and we went Dutch. She didn’t care.
All these comments made me think of that Jack Nicholson quote from As Good As It Gets. (Skw might like this one.) A woman asks him, “How do you write your female characters so well?” Jacks says “I think of a man… then take away reason and accountability.” He could have thrown “logic” in there too, because there’s nothing logical about how attraction seems to work. (I take that back, once you really start to examine it, there’s some twisted logic there.) I’m sure a lot of women feel the same way about us. I guess that’s the gap that Marni’s is helping to bridge. It’s a scientific fact that our brains work differently than female brains. It’s a wonder that our species has gone on as long as it has.
Hey Dave
yes it is easy to sometimes think that! I guess if we can learn from our different perspectives & work on communicating better with one another hopefully we can enjoy our differences more. If I can help at all with bridging that gap: fantastic
Marni
“Completely illogical. what do you mean “you would have been just fine” if I would have been “just fine” then why would I pay?!?!? the only reason I would pay is because she expects me to.”
It’s not illogical at all. If you pay for the date to supplement, then you’d be saying “I’m not sure if I’m good enough for you, but I’ll try and buy you,” wheres if you pay for the date despite the girl flowing with you without it you say “I’m sure I’m great and you’re gonna have a good time, but I also want to establish classic romantic gender roles here.”
In one instance the money is used to supplement for value you think you lack, in another it’s used to add value AND context to the date. Parkey mentioned that you can do it without, and we’ve been going over this for quite some time b/c one of Marni’s friends is quoted to have said that, but realistically, even a girl that swears by the stars a guy has to do X,Y,Z would go out with a guy that has a great personality and, for lack of a better word, “energy” even if he doesn’t fulfill those conditions.
That’s why one of the timeless advices I’ve read about women (which applies for ppl in general) is “pay attention to what she does, not what she says”
also, you seem to think this blog is everything Marni has to offer. It isn’t, this is the free sample, this is the hook, so you shouldn’t criticize the real material without having access to it.
If you have another coach, great. But no matter how great this coach is, and I don’t mean to diminish him, but no matter how great, he can’t know everything and his advice won’t work 100% for you unless he is God. I’ve done several disciplines in my life aside from learning about seduction, I’ve done some martial arts and some social dancing, and over and over again it’s apparent that idolizing one teacher deprives you of improvement, always.
” A woman asks him, “How do you write your female characters so well?” Jacks says “I think of a man… then take away reason and accountability.”
I’ve quoted it before.
“In one instance the money is used to supplement for value you think you lack, in another it’s used to add value AND context to the date.”
wait a minute, so you’re saying in one instance it’s “supplementing” value, and in the other instance it’s adding value?!?!?!
Listen, there is no difference between adding and supplementing. The question of whether it adds “value” is really based on her, is her reaction MORE positive because of it? Some (like the initial message) say that not only is the reaction positive, but it’s a necessary part of there being a future.
“also, you seem to think this blog is everything Marni has to offer. It isn’t, this is the free sample, this is the hook, so you shouldn’t criticize the real material without having access to it.”
Ok. so this is your argument now? That Marni maybe in this post is issuing edicts about men must do this, men must do that, but later on she takes a more holistic approach?
A hook is supposed to catch you and pull you in for more, not stab you and leave you out. If the “hooks” are filled with this much illogic, and contradictory statements, whats that say about the “real material” ?
skw, I’m sure you can find a great women who will be perfectly happy to go dutch. (It may take a little more time and effort to find that woman, but she’s out there.) Or instead of going dutch, you can choose activities that are free, just focus on connecting with her and having fun. That means more to most women than how much money you spend… any idiot can drop a ton of dough on a chick. It takes imagination and skill to show a girl a great time and not spend a cent. Or… you could just find a sexy older rich woman that will pay for everything. If you find one of those women let me know where you met her, I want one too.
“skw, I’m sure you can find a great women who will be perfectly happy to go dutch”
do I have to move to holland to find them?
It’s about finding a woman that will go dutch but not devalue me in ANY way shape or form. That’s the difficulty. Many women will go dutch, but that immediately disqualifies you.
by the way, this I completely understand, because if you go against the grain, you’re setting yourself up for difficulties. plain and simple.
“That’s the difficulty. Many women will go dutch, but that immediately disqualifies you.”
If you’re conscious about it THAT much, a possible fix is a first date that is free, e.g. somewhere touristy in your own city
Realistically, from my experience in west-coast Canada, most women don’t hold it against you if you don’t buy her coffee. A woman that would disregard a good time over ~$5 HAS to be mental. And to make it less awkward, have her order first (this is where “ladies first” comes in handy).
Just go for a walk with her for goodness sake.
“And to make it less awkward, have her order first (this is where “ladies first” comes in handy).”
What happens though is if they see you talking, the barista usually asks, “together?”
Then the moment of truth, clutch decision time. Say yes, and you’re siding with the man, say no, and you risk displeasing her. I remember saying “no” once when I went to a subway with a girl and she was into me, but I wasn’t so into her, so I said no pretty quickly, no hesitation.
I saw a reaction in her, but I didn’t care, in the long run I think that made her more attracted to me, but like I said, I didn’t care. AND I REALLY DIDNT CARE, I wasn’t just “pretending not to care” to actually get her.
“What happens though is if they see you talking, the barista usually asks, “together?”
Then the moment of truth, clutch decision time. Say yes, and you’re siding with the man, say no, and you risk displeasing her. I remember saying “no” once when I went to a subway with a girl and she was into me, but I wasn’t so into her, so I said no pretty quickly, no hesitation.
I saw a reaction in her, but I didn’t care, in the long run I think that made her more attracted to me, but like I said, I didn’t care. AND I REALLY DIDNT CARE, I wasn’t just “pretending not to care” to actually get her.”
I find it funny how you asked and answered your own question. You’re an autarky market
“I’ll get these, you can get the next two” usually works for me.
“I find it funny how you asked and answered your own question. You’re an autarky market”
How is that an answer? Can you read? do you know how to process information?
So the only way to get her is to ‘really not care’ if I get her?? Then, hey, guess what… even if I do get her…. I WONT CARE
““I’ll get these, you can get the next two” usually works for me.”
I’ve tried that, but usually get flaked out by the second date.
What would you say to a guy who told you that every time he got into a car he kept driving it off the road and straight into a wall, regardless of how he tuned the radio? “What station do I listen to?! No, tried that one! I still crash!” Well yeah if you’re driving along freaking out about the radio you aren’t looking at the road.
I went out with a lovely, intelligent young woman yesterday. We walked along the Thames, held hands, stopped for pizza, went Dutch, and then I kissed her on a bridge at sunset. Not a single awkward moment. Think I might just see this one again.
If they’re worth having, and if they’re attracted to you, they don’t care about going Dutch.
“If they’re worth having, and if they’re attracted to you, they don’t care about going Dutch.”
I agree. the point is, for many of them, being attracted to you is a function of whether or not you’ve paid. I agree, if you’ve attracted them via money, status, looks a priori, then yes the fact that you haven’t paid isn’t weighed as heavily.
As long as you believe that, it will be true.
No, I believe it.. BECAUSE it is true.
provide me evidence that contradicts that belief, and I’ll gladly change it.
Sorry Spock, I didn’t think to video my dates.
Reality is subjective, yours is different to mine, and I don’t doubt what you say is all true in your reality. As long as you are sat there in your white coat looking for outside evidence, however, you are basically sitting back and letting others dictate their reality to you. If you’re with a woman and you are looking for evidence of attraction you are looking to her to choose the reality you’re both standing in, you are asking her to lead. This is an instant turn off for women, regardless of who buys the frickin’ coffee.
You don’t like fat women. Women get the same feeling inside when they meet a man who is looking outside of himself for validation, especially if he’s looking to them for validation.
“Sorry Spock, I didn’t think to video my dates.”
I meant evidence based on logical reasoning, as well as a aggregated anecdotal data. The only place I see people challenging that looks money and status are the primary indicators of attracting women, are places like this – where there’s a clear financial incentive to do so.
“If you’re with a woman and you are looking for evidence of attraction you are looking to her to choose the reality you’re both standing in, you are asking her to lead. This is an instant turn off for women,”
This makes no sense. If there is a spoon in between us… there’s a #($*@)#$ spoon. There’s no questioning it, that’s reality.
“Women get the same feeling inside when they meet a man who is looking outside of himself for validation, especially if he’s looking to them for validation.”
All of us, men women, look outside of us to receive validation. Women are allowed to do it by societal rules, men have to somehow generate acceptance internally, basically become a monk.
I’ve spent the last 10 years writing scripts, I just had one nominated for an award on a contest, did that validation feel good, hells yea. I’d be a liar (something you might be familiar with) if I said I didn’t.
Me assuming a reality in which she is attracted to me is just as sound as me assuming a reality in which it rains skittles every thursday at 4:00 pm.
why would I assume either?
Err… because social psychology isn’t physics.
funny you mention that, the entire crux of quantum mechanics is that what you see isn’t the truth, and the experimenter is part of the experiment – and that newtonian mechanics is just an illusion. So even by your own “believe what you want and it’s true” nonsense, physics is more social psych than social psych.
[I understand someone that actually reads and knows stuff is rare]
And that’s the whole point. Of course nothing is fixed, nothing is scientific, but we make generalizations and assumptions about basic fundamentals to make our lives easier.
the keyboard you type on is a bunch of atoms, electrons spinning around their nuclei. crashing into each other. The probability of where an electron sits on the keyboard surface is determined by when you make the observation. It’s called “Heisenberg’s uncertainty”
but it makes your life easier to think of it as “a keyboard” doesn’t it?
LIkewise, if you are rejected 99 times out of a 100, sure each of those 99 cases could have nothing to do with you – maybe a nuclear missle hit her house each time, but it still a logical conclusion to draw and say, “hey maybe I’m not as attractive as most other men out there”
The science of emergence, like in genetics, is a better analogy.
Your relationship with all women in your life is a complex structure, like an organism, that grows out of day-to-day behaviours, which act like genes. It’s not a top-down controlled system, it’s a bottom-up system that forms as a large scale consequence of small-scale rules and actions.
Some of the behaviours that people like Marni suggest will not make sense when viewed in the context of a single small-scale interaction, but will have a dramatic effect at system level. An effect you won’t be able to foresee until you implement it and allow some time for the system to respond.
That’s why you need need to start doing stuff simply because other people who are successful are doing it, just to see what happens. That and stop insisting everything needs to make logical sense before you try it.
damn!! that is amazing. Parkey – how do I add this information into my “method”. To allow the left brainers of the world to truly understand this? Would love your assistance. This is really graet.
I’m flattered, but I actually stole this one from John. The concept at least.
“Some of the behaviours that people like Marni suggest will not make sense when viewed in the context of a single small-scale interaction, but will have a dramatic effect at system level. An effect you won’t be able to foresee until you implement it and allow some time for the system to respond.”
Quantify this. What is “some time” –months? years? decades?
Inherent in your message is a sentiment that I haven’t tried things.. I have, I’ve spent more money than humanly necessary on this.
I mean no wonder Marni is responding so well to this, you’re basically telling people to listen to her and not ask questions or even make a slight inquiry as to why. I mean, I’d love it if I had such a cheerleader telling other people to just listen to me, well, because!
For me, it’s a matter of reaching a point where women are non-essential parts of my life. I’ve failed so many times any hope I give myself is just setting me up for further pain.
Give up then. It seems you don’t want to be helped.
For me it took well over a year between my conscious decision to work on this, hard, and things really starting to take off.
A lot of it seemed crazy, but now I’m very glad I’m not too smart to listen to the advice of those with experience.
I guess this is just one way to articulate what a lot of coaches teach. I think I remember hearing David DeAngelo once say something about it being worth just becoming a good all-round sociable person. The example he used was a bar full of men with one supermodel sat in the centre. The obvious thing is to try to acquire the supermodel, but it’s better to just have fun, meet everyone… and then at closing time the barman, who you’ve made friends with, says “you can stay a bit longer if you like”. Then it’s just you and the supermodel sat there. You couldn’t have planned it, it’s just the sort of thing that happens when you’re that kind of person.
Basically all the good stuff actually comes as an indirect consequence of seemingly unrelated actions.
“The obvious thing is to try to acquire the supermodel, but it’s better to just have fun, meet everyone… and then at closing time the barman, who you’ve made friends with, says “you can stay a bit longer if you like”.”
this is an assumption onyour part, what if the supermodel leaves before the end. sure what you say is a possibility. but this notion of “forget about the girl and she’ll come running to you” is absolute nonsense.
Even in Marni’s hostel sexcapade, the guy had to walk her home.
Well. I have given up to some degree. But like I said, the world and the human mind is a crazy place. Solar flares, lightning strikes, there’s a woman that I’m interacting with due to a play, she’s “dating” someone else but is very friendly with me. Of course, I only risk my own pain by thinking it means she likes me.
She’s very attractive and therefore has the power in this situation. Any “pretending” that I don’t like her is just futile bs nonsense. (of the type you advocate for example)
As for wanting to be helped. Sure I do, if that help comes from a place of sound judgement and stands up to a basic test of logical inquiry. Unfortunately very little of what you said falls into that category, some of it does, and I’ve acknowledged it when it has.
Saying, “I told you to believe you’re attractive, and you didn’t, so I guess you don’t want to be helped!” is insulting at worst, and idiotic at best.
“Quantify this. What is “some time” –months? years? decades?”
- years sounds about right, if you’re lucky things will start coming together about 3 years in
“Well. I have given up to some degree.”
- if you’d have given up you wouldn’t be here
“As for wanting to be helped. Sure I do, if that help comes from a place of sound judgement and stands up to a basic test of logical inquiry. Unfortunately very little of what you said falls into that category, some of it does, and I’ve acknowledged it when it has.”
- It has logic, but it’s not the basic stuff, understanding the logic would require years in and out of itself, more or less like actually acquiring a degree in evolutionary psychology
“The obvious thing is to try to acquire the supermodel, but it’s better to just have fun, meet everyone… and then at closing time the barman, who you’ve made friends with, says “you can stay a bit longer if you like”.”
- That’s one way. Another is to make friends but strategically so that the supermodel sees you and gets the impression you’re the outgoing type and if everyone is making friends with you, you’re cool. Yet another way is to forget about the supermodel b/c it doesn’t matter if you get her. These are all methods coming from different belief principles. And guess what, for each method, there’s a person that can make it work.
So, SKW, instead of trying to figure out who is the best teacher, a better question would be, “what does each teacher allow me to learn or makes clearer?”
“damn!! that is amazing. Parkey – how do I add this information into my “method”. To allow the left brainers of the world to truly understand this? Would love your assistance. This is really great.”
- Marni, A lot of the “pickup” based methods are actually catered to left brained people. You need to really lead us step by step and explain things almost in terms of input/output. Are people more complex than that? slightly, but it works like a set of training wheels, it gets you started.
WhiteTiger pickup methods are usually based in an acquisition frame. “How do I acquire this woman?”
The method I describe above is at the core of what a friend of mine teaches. Simply do things that are attractive, be authentic, be true to your desires, and let the system bring the women to you.
Takes a leap of faith because it frequenty involves not doing the things that your gut tells you have to do or else you’ll “lose her”.
““Well. I have given up to some degree.”
- if you’d have given up you wouldn’t be here”
Obviously you missed the phrase, “to some degree” sometimes you seem like you’re actually intelligent, but then you make some completely ignoramus statement like this. You’ve puzzled me.
“Simply do things that are attractive, be authentic, be true to your desires, and let the system bring the women to you.”
Examples. How does one ‘be true to their desires’ do they verbally disclose? do they ask the girl out? do they write an email? any of these things immediately sets up an “acquisition frame” just like you say, we as guys want something, any way you slice it.
Pretending that you don’t is just imbecilic and delusional.
“be authentic,”
as in , lets say you believe paying for women on dates and buying stupid commercial bullshit on valentines day is archaic, not indicative of your actual commitment to a relationship, then you should be able to state that authentic belief and not be castigated for it?
Authentic like that?
“Obviously you missed the phrase, “to some degree” sometimes you seem like you’re actually intelligent, but then you make some completely ignoramus statement like this. You’ve puzzled me.”
- That’s okay, sometimes you seem like a civilized person but then you make some patronizing and repulsive statements like this, so we’re even
“…do they verbally disclose?”
- that works sometimes
” do they ask the girl out? ”
- that works
“do they write an email?”
- NO, no emails, no texts, phone call or in person, in the words of Russell Peters, “be a man”
“as in , lets say you believe paying for women on dates and buying stupid commercial bullshit on valentines day is archaic, not indicative of your actual commitment to a relationship, then you should be able to state that authentic belief and not be castigated for it?”
- okay, let’s say that. But you’re asking for something different. You’re asking to hold all these beliefs, but be validated by girls who hold being paid for and being given “stupid commercial bullshit on valentine’s day”. You can’t have the cake and eat it too. If you hold these beliefs, fine, but then it’s just a fact of life that you disqualify many women on that.
Granted, if everything else you have going for you (personality, looks, life) are so amazing women get wet by just being around your aura, some women will overlook their “rule list”. But in general, the more things you say “no” to, the more women you dismiss, for better or worse.
e.g. I’m a big “no” person to drugs of any sort, and cigarettes, I don’t date or even approach really girls who smoke.
“WhiteTiger pickup methods are usually based in an acquisition frame. “How do I acquire this woman?””
- yes, they do… and? I’m not talking about the frame in which these methods put you in, nor do I talk about the moral notions that these methods that almost equate women with ATMs imply. I’m talking about how they outline attraction, and the actions they prescribe. A theory does not have to be right to give correct results (and by correct I mean the ones you were looking for).
And again, this goes back to this approach of “I must devote myself to one method and one set of principles”, which doesn’t work that great for me.
“- That’s okay, sometimes you seem like a civilized person but then you make some patronizing and repulsive statements like this, so we’re even”
I do ? That’s a mistake on your part, I never claimed to be civilized, I just speak the truth. Which is on short order around here usually.
“But you’re asking for something different. You’re asking to hold all these beliefs, but be validated by girls who hold being paid for and being given “stupid commercial bullshit on valentine’s day””
Well, let’s take it a bit deeper. I’m asking to be validated by girls who claim they believe in equality of sexes, that no one should be treated any different than the other. If a woman doesn’t hold that belief, ie she believes in traditional relationship rules (EVEN THE ONES THAT DON’T WORK IN HER FAVOR) then there’s no problem.
But you’ve proven my point for me, which is Parkey’s words are contradictory… potentially.
But the point is, if being authentic is supposed to “let the system” bring women to me, but me being authentic is crapping on all the bullshit “rules” that society prescribes then how does being authentic bring me women, if as you rightfully said, my authenticity disqualifies a large swath of women because of their inherent hypocrisy?
I don’t believe in giving women heaps of free stuff or buy in to the commercial aspect of valentines either.
If you being authentic is you crapping on anything, spewing out a torrent of negativity like the dating equivalent of Ebenezer Scrooge I don’t think you can expect people in general to respond positively to that. If the authentic you is a miserable git you might want to go away and fix that first, because otherwise the only women you’ll be able to attract are the ones who can eclipse your issues with their own.
Maybe you need a therapist, not a dating coach.
“If you being authentic is you crapping on anything”
I’m sure you dislike murder, rape, and arson? Then wouldnt it be safe to say it’s authentic for you to crap on those things.
You’re getting lost in the words.
‘crapping on’ is just a crude way of saying, “I dislike” would that have been more fluffy to your sensitive years
See how you apply your spin, All I’m saying is I believe in male/female equality, across the board.
Not this selective women are the same from 9-5, mon-fri ,but then afterwards it goes back to medieval times where I have to ride up on a horse and stand when a woman leaves the table.
Ever notice how women want the courtship elements that benefit THEM, but want to “move forward” and “progress” from the courtship elements that DONT benefit them, they are labelled “archaic” and “backwards”
I speak the truth, and that makes me a “miserable grit” fair enough, so what you’re saying is it’s better for me to not be authentic, and pretend.. that’s fine if thats what you’re saying. but let’s not mince words about it.
Okay well you speak your truth. May it bring you much satisfaction.
“Okay well you speak your truth. May it bring you much satisfaction.”
Are you suggesting that we shouldn’t speak the truth? even if it’s “our” truth?
Isn’t that being in-authentic?
There’s really only 2 possibilities here:
1) My truth is completely true for me. And you, while you think you understand or “get” where Im coming from, don’t actually have a real understanding of what it’s like to be rejected THIS much. but your ego prevents you from accepting this fact. So you continue to spout out things that “worked for you” but this is true because you started from a much higher place than me.
2) There’s really only possibility number one.
I just think it’s a shame you won’t be helped and all you can do is come onto Marni’s site to bitch about how bad things are for you and because you want attention.
Shame on me for giving it to you I guess.
“I just think it’s a shame you won’t be helped and all you can do is come onto Marni’s site to bitch about how bad things are for you and because you want attention.”
I will be helped, and why exactly is it “bitching” ? I’m stating facts, like I said you don’t have that experience most likely, so it’s easy for both you and Marni and others to criticize it as “bitching”
I meant to say, I will be helped, if the “help meets the fore-mentioned criteria
Here’s a question that’ll bake your noodle.
If it was so easy for me (or anyone) to spontaneously just pop into a confident state and repeatedly approach women, and believe in myself and be direct and all that wonderful stuff, why in the blue blazes would me (or anyone) even need a place like this, or a ‘wing girl’ in the first place? You wouldn’t need any “products” at all, just have someone come and say, ‘believe in yourself” and you say, “Oh! believe in myself, thats what I was missing!”
Reminds me of an idiot boss I had once, he stops me in the hallway and says, “do a good job on that project” I wanted to say, “oh.. do a GOOD job? Whew, glad I ran into you.”
seriously – why do fat women like me?
Just got another indicator of interest from a fat woman. does my face just scream out loud “I can cook!”
Ok here goes, when I was in 5th grade me and my friends called this one girl ugly over and over. No I’m not proud of it, but we were kids, I’ve repented, and think I’ve paid my dues for making a honest kids mistake.
I don’t know what that ugly girl story has anything to do with anything really…
You’re right in saying confidence comes from good experience, and good experience is more easily gotten when you’re confident, so you’re stuck. That’s why you have to fake it and go out there “pretending” to be confident for a while, to collect good experiences.
Now if it were me, and several years back it WAS me, I’d start going out more, preferably get a wing, and get my hands on as much material as I can possibly to pick up bits and pieces from anyone. The point is it’s gonna be like martial arts, you’re gonna be doing mistakes over and over until you get a FEEL for it.
This is a debate that’s been going on for quite some time so I’m still tying to understand what is it that you are trying to accomplish. If it’s advice, some people gave it here, advice from Marni costs money in the form of products. If it’s change, the world is not gonna change, the only thing you can change is yourself. If it’s acknowledgment that you are right in saying romance is not fair, well, you got it several times. It remained unfair despite that.
Amen.
“I don’t know what that ugly girl story has anything to do with anything really…”
That was just a tangential exclamation on my part, it’s not relevant to our particular discussion.
“That’s why you have to fake it and go out there “pretending” to be confident for a while, to collect good experiences.”
Do you really believe that? I don’t. if you fake it, the problem is.. you know you’re faking. so they’ll be that little voice in your head that says, “ah cmon who are you kidding?”
“If it’s acknowledgment that you are right in saying romance is not fair, well, you got it several times. It remained unfair despite that.”
unfair towards men?
OK, Marni, in view of skw’s post way up above that started like this:
begin quote of skw ———–
“My beliefs and those who come to this site is to learn about how the two sexes can better communicate.”
Really? Let’s just have a look at a few of your product names:
“How to become a man women want”
“Confidence Booster Package”
“Wing Girl Super Sexy, Super Hot Transformation Package” and this one starts out with:
“I am not going to lie. Looks are important to women, just not as important as you think. ”
How about from your own bio:
“My job is to tell you everything about women so that you can meet, attract, date, seduce and be with the women you want.”
———- end quote of skw
It’s obvious from this post alone that skw is nothing but an antagonistic troll, hell-bent on being a negative wet blanket and arguing with everyone about every point they make.
AND HIS BELLIGERANCE TOWARD YOU IS INEXCUSABLE AND UNFORGIVABLE.
No little boy with skw’s attitudes has any business being on your site. He’s not worthy of the quality of the host or any of the other posters. He obviously needs personal psychological counseling — which is beyond the scope of your endeavors and this site.
On top of that, I personally have no patience for the way this guy very rudely insults your expertise and your products — not to mention the way he constantly criticizes and degrades women and their feminine nature. Any supposed “man” who doesn’t cherish the wonderful nature of women doesn’t deserve space on your blog or our time and attention.
I have totally had it with this guy.
Marni, PLEASE BAN THIS . . . THIS . . . THIS JACKASS. (I’m trying my best to be polite here.)
Ban his name.
Ban his IP address.
Ban his MAC address.
Ban his date-of-birth if necessary.
Ban his descendants for four generations.
BAN THIS TROLL and delete any new messages he posts.
And if he comes back under another name — believe me, we’ll all recognize his negativity — ban him and delete him again.
Mate, much as I might agree with you to some extent about the nature of skw’s contributions to Marni’s blog I can’t say I find your post very positive either.
You should be careful because it’s easy to use someone like skw as a proxy for things about yourself you’re not happy about. It’s something that I know I am also guilty of from time to time.
Parkey, there’s A REASON my post above “isn’t very positive!” It’s because I’m trying to get rid of an ASSHOLE TROLL who has no business being on this site. Do NOT assume to have the authority to tell ME to “BE CAREFUL,” and do not involve me in your pop-psychology analysis. Do not accuse me of projecting — YOU DON’T KNOW ME. And DON’T assert that I might be doing something that YOU DO. The fact that YOU DO IT has NOTHING to do with ME. Got it?
Read all of my other posts — they are ALL positve. The only negative posts I’ve EVER POSTED — EVER — are these dealing with the destructive TROLL known as “skw.”
I say again: READ MY OTHER POSTS — they are numerous and easy to find. Every single post I have EVER POSTED OTHER THAN THESE FEW DEALING WITH SKW IS POSITIVE. EVERY SINGLE ONE, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS. Then go back and read skw’s posts — EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM IS NEGATIVE and some are even ABUSIVE TOWARD MARNI.
Answer this Parkey: Just exactly how lopsided does the evidence have to be for you to understand the situation???
How can you POSSIBLY have read skw’s posts for the last few weeks and then accuse ME of being negative as if the negativity originates in my native personality rather than in skw’s destructive and uniformally negative posts???
Sometimes “being negative” is warranted. You will notice that I am negative ONLY toward skw and that’s because IT IS WARRANTED. Unlike skw, I am not negative toward women in general or male-female relationships — AS SKW IS. I am negative ONLY toward skw AND THAT’S BECAUSE HE DESERVES IT. Anyone who’s been reading skw’s posts and doesn’t realize that is friggin’ CLUELESS.
Once again: HOW IN THE HELL can you POSSIBLY have read my posts and skw’s posts for the last few weeks and then accuse ME of being negative?????
And to repeat: Just exactly how lopsided does the evidence have to be for you to understand the situation???
For God’s sake, man . . . .
Sorry but I have to agree with Parkey here
Boydnar, I understand your point, but I think SKW does make some contribution to this debate b/c there are many, and I mean TONS, of men out there with the same perspective, some are more idealistic, some are less.
Despite the debate with SKW not really moving anywhere, I think this is a perspective that is important to represent in this circle. And furthermore, I think the comments Parkey makes, and me too, in response to SKWs arguments, which I reiterate are NOT a rare exception, are a big contribution here.
I don’t see this as trolling, I see this as debating
I’ve been banned, trust me I have alot to say to this punk bodnar or whatever, he can’t meet logical statements with counter-arguments, so he lashes out, and he’s completely filled with not negativity, but rather just sheer stupidity.
And the best way to deal with a problem you don’t understand or are unable to actually face: you get rid of it. and hope it goes away.
I won’t say more, I just wanted to come here and say his efforts to ban me have been largely successful.
I banned you and we talked about this. I do not want you on here until you read those books. I will ban this address as well.
Yes I know you banned me, I was being sarcastic about these people “succeeding”
I wanted to let people know that I was indeed banned, and that’s why I wasn’t answering their questions and inquiries. and in bodnars case, his idiocy and lashing out.
Funny how statements like,
“Ban all of his generations” get a pass but statements like,
“Hey, I think men and women are equal” are considered negative but that’s another story.
I know, I was being sarcastic.
I just wanted people to know I’ve been banned and that’s why Im not answering their questions, or responding to their queries. or in this case, acknowledging their idiocy.
I could keep coming back but I won’t.
I know you did, and yes we talked about this.
I just wanted to let folks on here know that I’ve been banned and thats why I’m not responding to their questions and queries and in this case (bodnar, not you), their idiocy…
I mean, I’m still allowed to have an opinion and a free will, even after reading the books, right?
skw, your reading comprehension and your ability to think critically and analytically are so poor you’re going to have a very hard life. You could start improving by learning the difference between “their” and “they’re.” I would also suggest taking lots of math and physics classes. For a man, math and physics are the foundation for understanding the world and life. But now that I’ve suggested it, you almost certainly won’t do it, guaranteeing you a life of limited skills, limited understanding of the world you live in, and a future of hardship.
And just for the record, you should know that YOU are the one who got yourself banned here. You did it all by yourself with what you said and the attitude you displayed for a long time. If you think I did it you are just lying to yourself.
Men who are good with women are invariably what are called “lifelong learners.” Every last man I know who is good with women is downright EAGER to obtain teachings from other men — and Marni, who is unique in her ability to help men understand women — teachings on how to interact with women. Whether it’s audio lectures or video seminars or reading materials, successful womanizers and seducers are almost totally ego-free, are enthusiastic about any new materials they obtain from any source, and they are absolute sponges for learning.
There’s a proverb from the Hebrew King Solomon that goes, “just as iron sharpens iron, so does one man sharpen another.” That is to say, if you want to be learned and savvy and capable, then learn from every man you can every chance you get. To do that you have to be largely ego-free. Most men on this planet will never be very good with women because they refuse to accept teaching from other men (and Marni) because they think doing so would mean they are weak! How absurd!
Francis Bacon, who had one of the ten greatest minds in human history, said, “Reading is like unto conferencing with learned men.” The word “conferencing” means “sitting around chatting” — letting their iron sharpen your iron. Most of what we have to learn from other “learned men” we will gain from reading what they wrote, and the books that Marni recommended are a very good place to start. Recorded audio and video are modern forms of “conferencing with learned men” that didn’t exist in Bacon’s time. It is very advantageous to employ those media to learn from as well as the written word. Successful seducers use all three of those media to learn all they can.
I’ll make you a deal, but to take the deal you’ll have to change your behavior and start studying dating materials rather than sitting around thinking you know it all and no one has anything to teach you. If you read the books Marni recommended to you, and then you buy her products “What’s Inside A Woman’s Mind” and “How To Become A Man Women Want,” and watch them ten times each, I will send you a BUTTLOAD of dating materials that will keep you busy for a coupla years. These are dating materials that I no longer need and will gladly give to a student who is worthy of them. That is, a student who is eager to learn and improve himself. But from what I’ve observed, for you to become that student, you’re going to have to change your entire attitude about studying new materials and learning from others.
You can turn your dating situation around, skw, but to do it YOU have to change. Other people can offer to help you, but you have to change your attitude about learning and decide to accept their help. Whether you have future success with women will be determined by what kind of man you become, and that will be determined by what action you take and what you learn, and that will be determined by your attitudes and decisions.
The ball is in your court. So is your future. Are you going to stay as you are, or are you going to change and learn and become successful? Whatever kind of man you are twenty years from now and whatever kind of success you will have with women during that twenty years is entirely up to you . . . it is and will be your responsibility. You will have no one to blame for your failure or to credit for your success . . . but yourself.
Just know that if you come back here talking crap about Marni and her abilities, I’ll go back on the attack myself. I won’t want to, but I will. You’re not going to find a better, more helpful, more good-natured person who is as willing to help you (and me and others) as Marni is – and she doesn’t deserve abuse from anyone, especially any man who can’t get a single date. She’s so good-natured that she’s hesitant to become defensive and respond to personal attacks on herself. But I’m not.
If you read the books Marni recommended and buy and view those two products of hers, I’ll be happy to send you the pile of materials I mentioned. These are materials that will totally change your understanding of women and dating and they will make you very popular with women (wink wink), but they are different from Marni’s stuff because hers is absolutely unique and absolutely irreplaceable. Marni’s stuff is the deep-and-wide foundation that you can’t do without, and you will continually refer back to it to refresh your understanding of how women are.
There’s the offer. I’m sure I’m not the only one wondering what you will do. I’m sure some of the guys here are wondering whether you’ll remain frustrated and unsuccessful with women . . . or whether you’ll swallow your pride and start learning from Marni and from men who can date and seduce women like crazy.
You have two paths before you. One is the path of bullheaded, self-righteous non-learning and failure, the other is the path of ego-free, massive learning from Marni and many other men. We’re watching to find out whether you’ll stay a loser with women or you’ll become a winner. We’re watching to find out which path YOU CHOOSE.
Ok, so out of respect for Marni I really didn’t want to answer, but your stupidity is just too easy for the pickings. I feel like a mosquito at a nude beach.
I didn’t bother reading any of your pompous soapboxing, but these two points struck me:
“You could start improving by learning the difference between “their” and “they’re.””
what sentence are you referring to, this one?
—”I just wanted people to know I’ve been banned and that’s why Im not answering their questions, or responding to their queries. or in this case, acknowledging their idiocy.”—-
I used the correct their, to indicate possession. “They’re” is a contraction of “They Are” so if I said, Bodynar and people like him have no value, THEY ARE (or they’re) really stupid, that would be correct.
You might say, i should have said, “his idiocy” instead of “their” but I was using their not as a plural modifier rather a logical placeholder. since I didn’t identify you explicitly, the idea is, “there exists a person who possesses idiocy (which is a noun) and that person (whoever it might be) I cannot answer to. Hence the use of the possessive ‘their’ is correct.
And not that it’s any of your F#$(@ing business, Marni and I had a conversation offline, because she’s smart enough to know I’m not just some idiot coming on here screaming, “ugh marni sucks!” which you and your ( ahh, see, there’s another possessive modifier, I shouldn’t be saying ‘you’re’) puny brain is having a hard time grasping.
so you’re (that’s a contraction, of ‘you are’) defending someone who herself doesn’t even believe she’s been attacked.
As for math and physics, sure I’ll just pick up my quantum mechanics book from college and refresh myself on Shroedinger’s equation, the wave function, Maxwell’s equations, the Hamiltonian operator, as well as Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle. Anything else I should cover?
Sorry [not to you, to others]. that’ll be the last one.
I’m not impressed.
I’ve met a few people like you who’ve had a reasonable amount of science but still somehow can’t seem to apply improved logical thinking patterns and mental discipline to other topics. You also assert facts not in evidence because you assume things you don’t know. I could give several samples of both but it’s just not worth the time and effort.
Your attempt at a hypertechnical psychobabble explaination about the proper use of contractions and pronouns all points to that fact that if you would simply write clearly to begin with, you wouldn’t have to explain anything. Read back through what you write, edit it for clarity, and you won’t have to write more text later in an attempt to exlain what your earlier text meant.
And it’s not YOUR place to tell me that Marni doesn’t feel like you attacked her. That’s HER place and HER prerogative, not yours. And even if she says she doesn’t FEEL like you attacked her, YOU FLATLY DID — and you were inexcusibly rude to her. It’s up above in black and white and it’s undeniable. If she minimized it, it’s because she was being polite, as is her wont.
And this is what I’m talking about. You try to assert that reality is something it’s not, even when anyone can scroll up and see exactly what the reality is. The fact — if it is a fact — that Marni may have forgiven you and doesn’t hold the offense against you does not mean that you didn’t attack her.
Also, I’m not surprized that you wouldn’t read my post, because, as you’ve told us dozens of times in dozens of posts, you know everything and there’s nothing that anyone can teach you — not Marni, not David Wygant . . . no one knows anything that you need to learn.
Just don’t come back on here spewing vitriol at Marni and we won’t have any more problems. I really do wish you well and success — I honestly do — but I have little patience for anyone coming on Marni’s blog and criticizing her and ridiculing her products and endeavors.
Just read through most, not all, of the comments on this article. Wow.
Marni keep it up, we men could definitely use someone on our side. That’s all I’ll say.