Bad Boy vs. Nice Guy

bad boy, what women want, attracting women, how to attract women, picking up girls

Do Women Want To Be With The Bad Boy or The Nice Guy?

Contrary to popular belief women DO NOT want to be with the Bad Boy. They want the Nice Guy. I know you are probably cringing right now because everything you have learned up until now has provided evidence that makes you believe the opposite.

So again I am going to tell you, women DO NOT want to be with the Bad Boy. They want to be with the Nice Guy.

Listen to the audio below. It tells you how I know this to be true, why it’s true and how you can use this information to get any woman you want!

Download Audio Here

Want to know other secrets about what women want? Click Here to Find Out.

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  • Hi
    When are you going to put this book on DVD or something like DVD.

  • Being a true gentleman got me my first wife. She appreciated the fact that I didn’t try to get into her pants on the first date. However, she turned into a total bitch because I was trying too hard to be nice to her. I let her steal the pants off me. Even my grandmother noticed it and told me not to let her steal my manhood with her hen pecking!

    • Marni

      I hope I am being clear in saying that you can be a nice guy but still have a strong back bone. If you are nice it does not mean you have to be a wimp.

      Why women become bitchy or naggy is a totally different issue that stems from miscommunication and big differences between men and women. I will be writing a book all about it.

      Thanks Mike for your input!

      • In all honesty, I didn’t realize at the time just how much having diabetes can affect a woman’s moods.

        I still believe that nice guys finsh last.

  • Kevin


    This was a good audio. It kind of felt like you just had to put this out due to someone going thru a crisis or something. The whole audio seemed very immediate.

    I for one do not believe that women grow up aspiring to find a jerk or bad boy. And I do not believe women when sitting around will tell each other that they want a jerk or bad boy. But…..if one goes by the addict of “attraction is not a choice” then one can see that once the sparks go off, women will fall for a jerk or a bad boy real fast. If he is a tall, dreamy kind of bad boy jerk then its even faster. I have seen this my WHOLE LIFE.

    The reason that guys will ask you how to be a bad boy is quite simple. Bad boys on the whole in real life (and supported a bit outlandishly by the media) do get the girl. Its a fact. Women are intrigued by bad boys and they will open pandoras box to see what is inside (no pun intended).

    Sex in the City and just about any other show about single women reinforces this. Are you going to tell me that women will day dream about some nice guy that sells insurance or Mr. Big? Mr. Big of course.

    When men are young they see bad boys getting girls often. They see it first on the playground, then when the girls fall for the dumb jock, then when women go off with the motorcycle dude in leather, then for the bad boy corporate trader – it just turns them on. They go with these guys until its too late to either break it or turn away. Women have fallen for bad dudes at every turn in history – Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Jim Jones – charismatic bad boys.

    So women are there own worst enemies.

    As far as PR goes – actually women really do need to do that. But it would be half-hearted. Women will always be attracted to bad boys for the rush and excitement.


  • Paul

    Yes I believe that nice guys most of the time finish last. Absolutely. Women will walk all over men. My father used to tell me to treat a woman well, open doors, be considerate. Not wimpy or like a milquetoast. Be firm but polite and cordial and you will find a good woman. As of 40 years this has not happened. I have to tell you as soon as I went out into the dating world it was totally the opposite. When I lived in NYC (per 9/11) when used to give me the finger if I opened a door for them say at a Deli or 7-11. I would be out having drinks with a woman and she would start to flirt right in front of me with guys. I even had a young lady steal money from me.

    Lets face it. A good looking woman can find sex anywhere. She can have sex with just about anyone she wants to (if they are not married and sometimes that is not even the case). An average guy like me, that is not the case. So women have all the power. They are the choosers. The funny thing is that they are not really good at choosing.

  • Billy

    Marni, Interesting subject your talking about. For me in my experiences the bad boy image came not from nice guys being cocky and all of sudden and getting attention from girls or guy’s just knowing that women are dating jerks. It came more out what comes out of a woman’s mouth. Women have a tendency to complain about thier bf’s behind there backs in group settings and when men hear all this negativity all the time, its like why are these women putting up with all of this stuff and still sticking it out with their bf. Its gets to the point where guy’s start thinking, well they must like jerks so maybe thats what I have to do.

  • badoli

    Of course no woman wants to be with an a-hole. But a lot of spoiled brats feel attracted to men that show them the way how to be treated. Some messed up girl has a crush on me even though i don’t give a crap about her and treated her lets say not gentlemen-like… kissed her best friend in front of her eyes and so on… and she’s still into me…

    Explain me that!

    • Neuee Perez

      You mentioned, she’s messed up… that’s true… what we’re looking for are confident, beautiful women with a lot of choices who is looking for a long term relationship

  • How To Be A Nice Guy And STILL Get The Girl!

    • Ooops, got ahead of myself…


      I listened to your audio and have no problem with the message at all. For sure, lot’s of guys will be dazed and some will be confused because the party line for the last decade has been nice guys become just friends and bad boys get the girls.

      But as you say in the audio, you’re not telling guys to be wimpy pushovers, but to be fully masculine males with strong character who are willing to lead and yet are not afraid to be the good guys with boundaries that they probably wanna be anyways.

      Sure, jerks and bad-boys do attract some women, mostly because they’re willing to step up to the plate and the stereotypical nice-guys don’t. But a good-guy with backbone, character, and confidence can hold his own and let’s face it, how many potentially good relationships does the nice-guy trying to act like a bad-boy wanna trash just because he wants to be the playa?

      Looking forward to your book, Marni! And can’t wait to hear the controversy you’re gonna cause when you make the rounds with THIS message! Things are going to get interesting…


    Hmmmmmmm…………….Nice? Good?

    How about being ‘Masculine!’ and You made a comment that was spot on.
    Women need to also work on themselves and what it is to be ‘Feminine!’
    There is far to much political correctness around these days that is screwing
    with peoples Minds.
    Both Men and Women.
    And in the work I do, studying, researching. There is a word that is hardly ever mentioned.
    And yet it is something that both Men and Women seek to share at a deep emotional level.
    I Teach, Inspire, Encourage and Empower others to Live lives they LOVE!
    Because there is a simple Truth.
    If You do not Love who You are and love the life You live. Have Passion!
    You are not going to get it with another.
    That cuts with both Men and Women!

    Ange Fonce

  • Mike

    i agree with this, i am one who has always been a nice, sensitive guy, and i thought that i had to be mean to attract women, i always hated that women are with guys that are trouble, but the truth is that they want to with someone who is like me, someone who cares and who will never hurt their emotions, guys who are just in it for sex to me have a problem, i just want to have someone to love and feel the same way about me as i do them, trust me there is a greater chance they would cheat on me before i would cheat on them, they just dont want to be with a wus.

  • Karl

    Marni – great audio.

    I like what Bill wrote. He is absolutely right. I heard this last night at a local bar and wow it was nothing but complaint after complaint. Then two of the boyfriends showed up and the air did change. They were still losers but they were treated like kings. One seemed like he was out of a Judd Apatow movie (scruffy, overweight, dressed like a slob, clueless and putting down most of the people in the bar) and the other was like “f this and f that” real loser bad boy type. Both of the two young ladies (both very attractive I might ad) hugged and kissed these guys to death. Bought the guys drinks and it was like they were the greatest things on earth. I bet if I had a DUI, was unemployed, sloppily overweight and smelled that I would have been able to go home with one of those young ladies it seems (and both were very attractive).

    My question is what is the deal with women and these loser types? I have so many single male friends that have good careers, cool lifestyles, attractive, fit and like me most are pretty much dateless. Yet I see all these attractive young ladies with losers.

    The community preaches about leadership. I do not see it. Women are the leaders for these guys. Is it a power trip thing? Female ego?

    Please do an audio about that one. This is something that has been bugging me for a long time.

    • monique

      Ok there is a big big differnce between having low self esteem and liking bad boys, sounds like that was the case with those two “attractive’ ladies, ladies that have no clue about having self respect. women like men with BALLS, lets say that again BALLS. not a man that gives his power to comfort the woman, i speak from my life, my soon to be ex let me wear the pants and i got resentful and angry that he could not take the power from me. and if you were a alpha man those women would not appeal to you. you would want a woman with self repsect and head on her shoulders just my thoughts ….

    • Serenity

      chivalry is dead, that’s why. i don’t personally know the world of females ’cause i’m not very girly-girlish, and i’m fairly young, too, but get this: despite what Marni says, girls like bad boys, end of story. so maybe not ALL girls like bad boys, but majority does. read and understand what i’m saying: it doesn’t matter if fat or thin or rich or poor. we like bad-boy-attitudes. and don’t ever call anyone a loser, because you know what? that makes YOU a loser. thanks for reading!

  • Billy

    Thanks Karl, what I was getting at though was the guy’s who are inexperienced in the dating and with women, most coming out of high school. At first you don’t know that women complaining about there bf’s is just something for some unknown reason they do. Its normal female behavior when they are around other women but it doesnt mean that they’re being treated badly, its just what they do and if don’t have much experience with women then you will come to the conclusion that they like guy’s who don’t treat them so well. Karl what Marni says is true, I was trying explain to her from a guy’s point of view. As you can see from Karl’s post Marni, my pointed was proven.

  • Andrew

    ok i haven’t read or listened to the series or books. But I have been known as the nice guy from preschool to this day. I have few friends, and as Masculine,fit, and kind as I am, the truth so soar that I have found is nice guys truly do finish last. No matter what I do, nothing works, i have more then enough confidence and still nothing, I refuse to give up, I will find a girl, but what is it with the girls these days? i mean you be a gentleman and others around you treat you like junk, and then by the end of the day/week/or even month no one gives a care. if guys who are just being themselves around women aren’t being accepted, then what are we doing wrong? cause seriously i’m 5’8, athletic build, average weight, and I am according to most the nicest guy you’ll ever meet. so why aren’t more girls chasing after me asking me for an email address or phone number? It just doesn’t make sense, my parents taught me from the a young chivalry, i carried it all my life, and as old fashion as is may sound no girls that i know bother to even notice. i guess i’m old fashion?

    • seth

      I think you honestly kind of answered your own question, im sure you have heard many times before when someone dies, everyone tells people oh ” he was the nicest guy you would ever meet” when in reality he could have been a real jerk. So please save that quote for your funeral, the problem with being called ” the nicest guy you could ever meet” is it really stereotypes you into the category of being almost like a pushover, suckup or general people pleaser, and tells the outside world, if your just agreeing with everoyne all the time then you mustnot have a backbone or your own opinions.

      Now PLEASE do not take that as a cue to be a jerk cus frankly the world has enough insecure afraid of commitment bleeding heart “Bad Boys’ ( yes thats all they are, drama queens who cant get over their issues)
      dont belive me watch the film “Ghosts of girlfriends past” to better understand, the difference of why these bleeding hearts are getting women is very similiar to a puppy with sad eyes, they arent afraid to go after what they want, they see women not as you would see them as a companion but simply as a challenge, much like a game and once they have the girl in bed, the game is over for them. Honestly ask yourself while it seems cool
      is that who YOU ARE, do you really want to just use people.

      i think the reason nice guys finish last
      isnt they cant get girls
      its just they see losers all around them with insecure girls
      and they start to lose focus on being who they are
      and in term lose out on finding the girls who are actualy WORTH YOUR TIME

      your better than all of these bad boys
      remember that
      if a girl likes them
      it just shows you that she obviously is too immature for you
      think about it
      find a woman who has goals in life

  • Stevie Mac

    I’ve been on both sides of this (i.e. being both the bad boy and good guy, and not being both the guy and the girl… that’d just be plain bizarre… although maybe for one day it’d be interesting…)
    Anyway, before I contemplate that for to long, thought I’d give my opinion on this.

    From the posts made so far, it would seem most of you are referencing couples/partners/people that are already IN some kind of relationship.
    How that relationship occured likely had NOTHING DIRECTLY to do with the guy being a “bad boy”.
    Rather it is to do with certain attributes the guy showed he had that consciously and unconsciously are attractive to women.

    It may sound bizarre, but it was the positive aspects of that guy that caused the intial attraction, such that the woman puts up with, blinds herself to or quickly forgets his negative aspects (which are the ones that we tend to pick up on and wonder in frustration why she’s with him).
    You probably see an over-opinionated, agressive, arrogant and ignorant narcissist.
    She probably sees a self assertive, self reliant, confident and genuine guy.

    Other things to bear in mind are:
    * Unless you stalk these guys and take notes on their every action, admit to yourself that you dont really know what they’re like. All you are seeing is their social personality; their private personality could be very different for all you know.

    * There are thousands of good guys in great relationships with attractive women! Trouble is, you are often so fixated by those relationships or people that stand out or strike you as totally illogical, you dont take note of all the others.

    * Remember that guys can be just as illogical when it comes to attraction, dating and relationships – how many guys do you know that put up with huge tantrums, selfish behaviour, coldness and criticism 24/7 from their girlfriends just because the girl is beautiful?

    OK, no idea where I’m going with this now, so I’ll stop typing 🙂

    • Regina

      I think this is the best response so far. I am in a relationship (for lack of a better word), with someone others perceive as a bad boy. Openly, he is rude and calloused. With me, he is sweet and considerate and humble, and mostly respectful (moments of disrespect have gone both ways). Always, he is opinionated–lol. I didn’t think I was ready for this relationship, but he was too adorable when wooing me, even showing doubts in his ability to do so, but still very confident. Some things that have occurred between us and things that have occurred outside of our relationship have stricken both of our self-confidence and confidence within our relationship. He does have confidence issues, though. I think my ex could more fit the description of the “bad boy” than my current boyfriend, as my ex is more narcissistic, but tries to portray himself as the “perfect husband.” If my boyfriend makes some comment about a good aspect of himself, he does so by selling himself short. “Well, you know I AT LEAST…”

      He does have some “bad boy” characteristics, and some that only appear to be so. The ones that are solidly “bad boy” I am watching for, to make sure they don’t damage our relationship. But if we can work these things out, he’ll be a nice “bad boy” and he WON’T finish last. I am way more attracted to him than any other man I’ve been with.

      I think the worst times with him, though, are when he doubts me. I’m as faithful as they come, and when he shows this doubt, it is the time I find him least attractive. Some concern is fine, feeling a “little” possessive is a compliment, being some degree of self-deprecating is more attractive than over-confidence bordering narcissism. Any of these to an extreme is not attractive and can be insulting, embarrassing, or even dangerous. Quiet confidence with instrospection (because it takes confidence to be introspective) is the most attractive and appealing, to me.

      And btw, a girl doesn’t have to be a “B” to “tame” a bad boy. I think men are men, and want to be loved and respected as much as anyone else. But for me, I HAVE to be respected and considered in order for the other to receive such admiration. I told my boyfriend to be himself and let me decide if I can handle it. If I decide I can’t handle it, I see no point in nagging. I’ll express myself, and let him decide what to do. If he can’t adjust or I can’t adjust, we’ll go our separate ways. If we can’t make it as ourselves, it would be better to let go than try to make each other change, or we’ll be miserable anyway, and I’ve had my fill of misery.

      But yeah, if your goal is to max out your “sex card” nice guys (as opposed to weenies) probably have fewer dates (although maybe more sex, ;p).

  • Greg

    Hi Marni,

    I appreciate your efforts to explain and differentiate between “Nice” and “Wimpy”…that said, my 40+ years of dating and marriage suggest strongly that attraction is NOT a choice and women are hardwired to see the “Bad Boy” type as better able to protect them and their offspring. Of course this is rubbish, but emotions trump reason in matters of attraction. This is a clever marketing device however, and I congratulate you on trying a different approach!! After all, what percentage of the male population is tall, dark, handsome and a world class jerk? The average “Joe” who is balding, has manners and is consistently ignored by women as “boring”, is a much more fertile market! It’s similar to all the PUA’s copy which tries to convince men that they can get all the women they want in spite of the face that they aren’t good looking….ah…right….sure. Good looking bad boys will ALWAYS get (and keep, if they choose) the girl.

    • cris

      Wow, i must say for 40+ years of dating you still obviously havent lost your ablitity to be a complete TOOL, whatever text book you recieved your information on is pretty bad, yes obviously it has been stated that attraction isnt a choice it is a chemical reaction, but you honestly are going to say that women see bad boys as a better guardian for their offspring. Wow you really probably are a PUA all talk no brains, studies by actual SCIENTISTS all over the world have shown that women are attracted to nice and bad boys for different reasons, generaly it is their hormones that control whom they are pulled in toward, but it has been known time and time again that when it comes to quick flings and meaningless sex women chase after bad boys for just that the chase, while for serious long term relationshpis they go to nice well rounded (actualy have their life together) guys.

      And for the fact of your answer, WHO THE HELL ARE YOU to tell this guy he is hopeless and hey thanks for trying but all girls will just go for insecure bad boys in the end, im sorry i guess i didnt know you know all women, ya guess what Mr Mid life crisis express (probably why your 40 married and coming on here to put down younger decent guys) While its easy to know women are attracted to bad boys, 9/10 its because they think they can change him and guess what (still surprising considering your in your 40’s and havent realized this)
      women eventualy grow out of this phase, ya the loser here you are insulting telling him he is hopeless
      guess what HE is one day going to be some womans husband because he is a real MAN.

      You just have to love how you all say “nice guys are wusses” well guess what everyone has their own stuff in thier lives to deal with we all arent perfect, and at least nice guys admit that, they dont just use people and string them along but in the end hide that they are just afraid of commitment and relatonships like your pathetic bad boys

      BAD BOYS

  • Gary


    Women do instinctively want a “bad boy” type. Why? They give them emotional spikes. Women crave the emotional spikes. Plus many good looking types can get away with being a bad boy because women chase after those kids of guys.

    You are looking at this from a logical point of view. Women are not logical in attraction, far from it. So asking your friends is not going to work. Of course they are not going to say they want a jerk for a partner, but deep down they will choose that type 9 out of 10 times. I am in my 40’s and have been around and am not blind. Women instinctively crave the bad boy type.

    Sorry but I think you are dead wrong in your conclusions here.

  • Mike

    Yeah I agree that women do like bad boys. No question there. Asking a group of women this question is not going to get one anywhere. They will most likely so “no way” to be civil but then go home and go out with a bad boy type. They cannot help themselves. Lets just be honest here and admit it.

  • Regina

    OMG, this is funny. My ex is not great looking. He has some nice features, but he is dumpy and balding. Still, he has an ego the size of North Montana (movie reference for the enlightened. ;p). Why was I attracted to him? Initially, I wasn’t, but he was funny and I got along with his family. The conclusion of this story is that he is an abusive, selfish prick, who ended up living with me for 3 years with no sex, because he assaulted me. I don’t want to misrepresent myself, as I don’t have so much confidence in my looks, but given his looks, I think he saw me as a trophy, and a man as “worthy” as he is can’t lose. He tried to hold onto me for 3 years, but I made it clear from the moment I left that it was over, and it never changed for me.

    My current, uh, boyfriend (we’re taking it very slowly), is good looking enough to be the stereotypical bad boy and is outwardly so, but he won me with confidence AND politeness (um, there’s more to this, but he is a complex person, who also comes across as genuine), before I ever even saw that side of him, which he doesn’t direct at me (yeah, I’m looking out for it–lol). I’ve had enough of the other BS. Add to that that I am faithful. It is the respectful sort that wins my heart, and I have never dated a “cad” type. Even my ex doesn’t quite fit the category. Also, I don’t sleep around, and have no desire to. A man who would disrespect my relationship status is no friend to me, and it doesn’t matter how attractive he is to other women.

    I’m pretty sure I’m rare, but like they say: A lady in public; a whore in the bedroom. Well, a gentleman in public and to his lady (or just to his lady and to certain public), a cad in the bedroom. ;p

  • Mike

    Most women do want the nice guy, but after reading on the interweb that they do, im not so sure… Let me explain.
    With the bad boy image, you get this brash, over confident, way over the boundary of self esteem, and people that are beyond cocky
    With the nice guy, you get this kind, generous, calm, genuine person… Which im one of… but then, apparently we are wimps, feeble, over the top with emotions, over the top with everything that annoys/hurts us… the bad guy has no emotions, and only really concentrates on themself

  • Bruce

    Marni: Just found your “WGM” site… very interesting! The wing girl thing has worked for me during the past six months in my own situation. I’ve learned (the hard way) recently that the Nice Guy/Bad Boy scenario is perhaps, more accurate when described as “Great Man/Idiot Jerk scenario. Sure, many women often are fooled by the BB/IJ approach at first… but it never lasts over time. Often what happens is that a “Nice Guy” comes along and the woman’s attraction for the nice guy is ‘enough’ ~ for awhile. Over time though, the nice guy routine becomes boring, predictable and no longer attractive. The hot passion and that wonderful new relationship energy begins to fade. I’ve learned that as soon as your woman is no longer ATTRACTED to you as a MAN, the love affair becomes a downward spiral. At that point most “nice guys” begin to do all the things that destroy intimacy & attraction while wondering “what went wrong”. We begin to act as boys rather than guys; certainly not as men.
    Becoming a Great Man is the antidote to the Nice Guy syndrome.
    Marni, you are 100% right: confidence, masculine energy, positive focus, respect, honesty, dominance & vision are what make up the real aspects of being a real MAN. The style of the Nice Guy is to suck up, give up and beg for a womans approval ~ all of which destroys her attraction.
    Often, as men in our culture, we’re not taught the difference between being bad Boys and great Men. We end up in the Nice Guy category with all the frustration and heartache this causes.

    Thanks for your work & insight.

    • Marni

      Bruce you are very welcome and thanks for that comment. I love how you explained it!

      • Snoopy

        I agree too .. I think Bruce’s comment makes the most sense and he explains it well. That explains why many guys can get the first date, but it kind of drops off from there.

        So how can we keep that energy going and remain attractive and non-boring??

  • Hanberlo

    Hey, all! Well I just came across this site, and I think I know whats going on out there. Believe it or not, women DO prefer the bad boy type. The only exception to this, is maybe a woman seeking a long term marriage relationship (settling down, kids n stuff). But to all you overly nice guys out there, there is hope for you yet. You really don’t have to be a bad boy at all. Just stop being a wuss! You can be nice, but not be so soft and indecisive. It’s kinda long to explain here, but if any of you guys here have a problem with getting a date (or laid), I think I can help. There was a time when I too was wimp like, as I had no one to show me the ropes.

  • mikey

    Hi I am 46 years old man and i have been told by my friends and family that i’m a nice guy with a great personality and i’ve also been told that i am cute, attractive and good looking although i never thought i was was that good maybe low self esteem. Well my point is i have just came out of a marriage of 10 years and am single now and getting back on the dating scene. I have loads of confidence to join in and dance with loads of pretty and hot girls with no problems at all and me and the girls have fun however i feel wrong inside to approach and talk to women especially young ones for possible dates. Would attraction still work for me at my age or am i ready for the bin. I mean is it possible to attract younger women?

    Thanks for reading

    • Marni

      OF COURSE!!!! Attraction works at every age. But the trick is that you have to be able to Turn Yourself on before you can turn anyone else on. If you are unsure, or low confidence about what you are doing then others, especially women, will be even more insecure about it. Meaning, if you don’t support it, no one else will.

  • Tom

    This is a topic that never seems to get old. I think your audio draws a clear distinction between
    nice guy vs. wimp but I think one thing that really makes it clear what makes bad boys most attractive is that they
    bring a challenge to the relationship. People always want what they can’t have. Women try to change the bad boy
    and the nice guy is always predictable and available.
    One thing I have found really strange are these cases where I have heard where there women who wrote letters to men on death row or are serving life sentences and they haven’t even met these men in person. These are documented cases. What gives?

  • sangos

    Yeah Marni!…you got a point(great to have an eloquent woman like you here)…but again I would agree with men who posted above…guess this is the ever elusive persona.. that magical mix of the bad boy and nice guy that just floors women and keeps them afixed there 🙂 (tough balancing job for men!)…Its like Spiderman versus Peter Parker….which one is all the gals kissing?

    • sangos

      One more ex. if you follow Spartacus Blood and Sand on TV….would say Spartacus is the ultimate Perfect Man ( just see the way he handles Katrina)…Is Crixus few steps below (loads of Badboy)?…all the gals on screen lust for him!!!

  • Randy

    This topics seems to never go out of style! A few folks on here hit the nail on the head in my opinion. Which is women are looking for the BAD BOY ATTITUDE! NOT NECESSARILY THE BEHAVIORS! I can almost guarantee you if you adopt the I don’t give a rats ass attitude it will show. The ladies pick up on this and come a flocking. It gives off a air of, “I know who I am and don’t need your approval nor do I want it” Being opinionated is another characteristic that is common in the BB. He will speak his mind whether you like it or not, whether you want to hear it or not, and not apologize for it. Another is being a leader with men and women. Not waiting for confirmation his decision IS the confirmation. Too many to list so I’ll sign off now.

    But before I go I think sangos said it the best. Read that post. One more thing when meeting the ladies stop focusing on the outcome, lace your boots up, put your spine back in, and be assertive. Let them know what you want! Don’t p%%&y foot around. LET IT BE KNOWN. WOMEN LIKE THAT. Then read them and deliver what they want.

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  • Cool talk, but your audio quality is way weird on this track. FYI.

  • PHIL

    I’d like to focus on an idea talked about in an essay written by Julia Serano called “Why Nice Guys Finish Last.”
    I found this quote to be very thought-provoking:
    …I would argue that “nice guys” are generally read as emasculated or effeminized men in our culture. In a world where calling a man “sensitive” is viewed as a pejorative, the very act of showing respect for women often disqualifies a male from being seen as a “real man.” I believe that this is a major reason why many heterosexual women are not sexually interested in “nice guys.” -p. 238
    Isn’t that interesting? And sad?
    Heterosexual women always say they want to meet a nice guy who treats them with respect, but then somehow they end up dating some loser jackass who only cares about his own needs. We’ve seen this play out in movies and in real life. Our friends have done it. We’ve done it. Our single moms have done it. One may ask, “Why do guys act that way?” but it may in fact be better to ask, “Why do women allow men to act that way?”
    If relationship after relationship finds you with a series of men who act like assholes, you need to ask yourself why you acquaint yourself with these men long enough to call what you have a relationship. You should ask yourself why that great guy that you’ve known forever but only see as a friend hasn’t made it on your “sexually attracted to” list. Why are the rude, moody, aggressive guys so appealing? Why are the nice, respectful, understanding guys so unappealing? Why is your idea of a “real man” not so nice of a guy?
    Here’s another quote from “Why Nice Guys Finish Last”:
    So long as heterosexual women are attracted to men who act like aggressors, and heterosexual men are attracted to women who act like objects, people will continue to fulfill those roles. -p. 237
    If the men you chose to date as a heterosexual women (or gay man for that matter) are assholes, what do you think that nice guy who’s totally into you will think he has to do just to get you to notice him? If the only guys who seem to excite you are the ones who are emotionally unavailable and/or physically domineering, why would the sensitive, physically unthreatening guy even bother with you? What good is it to say that you want a “nice guy” when all you accept as attractive are “bad boys?”
    One more quote:
    Lots of women…want to create a world in which women are allowed and encouraged to be sexual without having to be nonconsensually sexualized. […] I would argue that for this to happen, we will also have to work to simultaneously ensure that men can be respectful of women without being desexualized. -p. 239
    (Emphasis is the author’s.)
    If what we really want is a “nice guy“, then we cannot allow ourselves to continue to date “bad boys.” Dating and/or having sex with “bad boys” sends a message to the “nice guys” that in order for us to be interested in them, they have to treat us badly. And why the heck would we want to send that message? If we keep lowering the bar on what kinds of behavior are acceptable in relationships, why would our partners have any incentive to raise it? We’re already in a relationship with them. If we let people use us; if we put ourselves in a position to be used, people will take advantage of that. But if we demand to be respectfully treated as equals, our partners will do so (and anyone who doesn’t won’t make it to a partner- status anyway).
    Nice guys don’t finish last because they’re weaker. The only reason “nice guys finish last” is because we give the “bad boys” an unfair advantage. By accepting their behavior, we make it easy for them to abuse us. If certain behaviors become truly unacceptable in relationships, they will be discontinued because they no longer offer any advantage. If that guy you’ve been obsessing about hasn’t called you for a week- forget about him! Don’t allow him to be “mysterious.” Allow yourself to see that he’s not interested and find a guy who is! If what you want is a guy who’ll call you when he says he will (a “nice guy“), why would you accept someone who does the opposite (a “bad boy“)?
    Let’s get smart about this. It’s about time that we realized that real men are nice guys.

    ~ Samantha
    Wow…I agree with michellemysistahs, as soon as I read this I felt guilty…
    I apologize “nice guys”!!!

    # Posted By determined_MD | 2/2/10 11:04 PM | Report | Reply
    good post , this from a mans point of view who in the 60’s was a shy(to the point of being paranoid) actually afraid of what girls thought of me . i was the proverbial nice guy .

    i agree with what you have here:
    Nice guys don’t finish last because they’re weaker. The only reason “nice guys finish last” is because we give the “bad boys” an unfair advantage. By accepting their behavior, we make it easy for them to abuse us. If certain behaviors become truly unacceptable in relationships, they will be discontinued because they no longer offer any advantage. If that guy you’ve been obsessing about hasn’t called you for a week- forget about him! Don’t allow him to be “mysterious.” Allow yourself to see that he’s not interested and find a guy who is! If what you want is a guy who’ll call you when he says he will (a “nice guy“), why would you accept someone who does the opposite (a “bad boy“)?

    this is from another thread and post from a synical nice guy and the present signal or message girls/women send nice guys by there actions . which by the way may give alittle more insite into the nice guy problem . (again this guy has some good points but as said very synical and alittle angry) also i’ve included some side thoughts found in ( ).
    Posted Over a year ago Views 30605 Comments 93 Category Dating

    Where Did All The Nice Guys Go?
    I see this question posted with some regularity in the many personals sections on the internet and what not, so I thought I’d take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven’t figured it out quite yet.

    What happened to all the nice guys?

    The answer is simple: you did.

    See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He’d tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn’t feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were f***ing treated you.

    At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were “just friends.” Besides, he totally wasn’t your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn’t know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.

    Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you weren’t dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren’t the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you’re single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, “What happened to all the nice guys?”

    Well, once again, you did.

    You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy (tampon) without reciprocating, in kind,(how many ever tried to set up the guy pal with another girl , yah we know it isn’t you but at least try to help him knowing if you were close to him that he had no love life at all) with physical intimacy (and that doesn’t necessarily translate to having sex with him). You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive “just-a-” friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren’t really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you’re upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he’d have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.(nice guy turn jerk and it has happened girls, to alot of really sweet nice guys. there’s even, imagine this, guys that say they turned to being jerks just to get a girlfriend and it worked yet if they started showing their nice guy tendencies the girls would start loosing interest as soon as they started acting like jerks again the girls interest would return)

    Fact is, now, he’s probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I’m sorry that it took the complete absence of “nice guys” in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.

    So, if you’re looking for a nice guy, here’s what you do:

    1.) Build a time machine.

    2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.

    3.) Take a look at what’s right in front of you and grab a hold of it.

    I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don’t really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.

    If you were five years younger.

    So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you’ve f***ed yourself over. You’re getting older, after all. It’s time to excise the bullshit and deal with reality. You didn’t want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn’t want you, now.
    (this isn’t necessarily true there’s been many nice guys that would take the girl, however at times the nice guy does feel at times that he was just settled for as a last option. and then wonders if i’m so right for her now why wasn’t i right for her while we were teens or early twenty’s. i’m the same guy now as i was then, (the boring ,asexual,doormat,wimpy,weak, and other such adjectives that girls/women asign to the nice guy)

    in all truthfulness i hope that more women read what you have here and take the article i included (with a grain of salt)

  • PHIL


    An open letter from HLBB: Bitch, sit the fuck down…
    I will preface this entry with the following statement: I’m a little pissed off. Today’s post isn’t directed to the men either; it’s directed to a certain type of female. This particular breed of girl has made her appearance in the lives of a few men I know…men I hold near and dear to my heart… men that I would gladly slap a bitch for. So this open letter is to her and her kind.

    My pimp hand has been raised…


    I’ve had enough of hearing about you. You’re not slick in my eyes, nor are you the woman my boy(s) make you out to be. You’re running a particular type of game that is played on both sides, but for some reason, men don’t recognize it when they’re the ones who have been played. I’m not impressed.I see you when you meet him, get him engaged and get him all interested. But you don’t want him. For whatever reason it may be – and I’m sure it’s valid – but you have not said those exact words. You haven’t let him go. This is what’s slick about it: you’ve always been “truthful” about the situation.

    You have a man. You just got out of a relationship. It’s just a sex thing. You just want to be friends. There’s someone else. You haven’t gotten over your ex. You’re focusing on your career right now.

    Shall I go on? Because trust, I know the Book of Excuses the way Jimmy Swaggart knows the Book of Revelations. So go ahead, quote from your book, because it’s your actions I have issues with…

    You call him when you get into a fight with your man. You do girlfriend like things, like introduce him to friends and family, cook for him, celebrate his birthday, and share important details of your life. Sex. He wants to but you don’t. You may have thrown him a bone once or twice, but that’s about it. You then gently explain that you feel more friendship for him than sexual attraction, yet still have no problem calling his ass at 2 in the morning when you need a place to crash (no sex though). You tell him about the “someone else” and then compare him to that person, moaning and groaning about how difficult it is for you to choose. When he presses for more time together or hints at a commitment, you cite your career. But when you need him for something, you have no problem in taking time out of your busy day to call him up for it.

    Bitch. Shut the fuck up.

    If you were to reverse the genders on these scenarios, a bunch of women would start nodding their collective heads, remembering the guy that ran this exact game on them. But guys? They don’t realize that women do this shit…and that’s when they call me. Confused. You know why they call me up all confused? Because each one of you has told him that you were with a guy who treated you in this exact way. So when you quote from the Book of Excuses while contradicting yourself with your actions, he gets confused… because you wouldn’t treat someone this way after having it done to you, right?


    You want to disagree with me? Go ahead. Because it’s your contradicting ass that causes men to label ALL women “confused”…so when a woman now says she’s focusing on her career but wants to find that person to grow with, the men tune out after the word “career” because of you, and she’s left talking to a proverbial brick wall. Or, when she says a guy is a friend, he assumes that this is the guy she’s stringing along until something better comes up because that’s what YOU did. We know that men aren’t the best at opening themselves up to emotions, and here you are playing with them. I’m fucking sick of it. YOU are creating the assholes of the world. You perpetuate the cycle of: he’s an ass to this girl, so she can be a bitch to this guy and then that guy can be an ass to this girl…and on and on and on…

    As for that “getting even” or “it’s my prerogative” or that “eye for an eye” bullshit? I have a simple response for that:

    Grow up.

    Yes. A pair of high heels and money in the bank doesn’t make you grown sweetie, your actions do.

    Look, I’ve had some shitty things done to me by men. I’ve been dumped, I’ve been used, I’ve been cheated on, I’ve been stalked (as in try to issue a peace bond, had change my number twice stalked). But NEVER have I allowed any of the actions of someone else dictate my actions towards another person.

    I’m not sitting a perch of superiority here either sweetie, I’m calling out your weakness for what it is. You got hurt, I get it. But what? You now you think it’s okay to mess with the emotions of another person so you can feel better? Really? How well is that working out for you? How many men have to pay for the actions of that asshole ex? Do you think these guys are a bunch of collective voodoo dolls and that whatever you do to them will be felt by your ex?

    No, you twit. It doesn’t. It just creates more like him.

    Oh, almost forgot my favourite move. It’s when my boy(s) realize that this isn’t going anywhere and find the strength to cut you off…you start calling, texting and showing up on their doorstep even, asking them to not be mad at you. that you still want to be his friend. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit! If the roles were reversed and he did that stuff, you’d be screaming “stalker”. But YOU do it and he thinks “but see? She DOES want me”. But you don’t. You just want to stick more pins in the voodoo doll so you can exorcise your demons.

    Because if you really cared, if you were genuine and honest about your friendship, you’d realize that you’d have to let him go.

    Okay maybe, you are at a confused stage. Does keeping him in the picture make it any clearer? Truthfully, no. But you spin your truth to fit your needs, don’t you? He’s good to you. Sure. But there’s no reciprocity, the real genuine give and take that makes a true friendship. What kills me – no, what makes me want to bitch slap you – is that you know this. Call it what you want, but you’re exploiting a “friendship” to suit your truth. In debating this with one of the men in this situation (because there are a few right now), I started to say ”let me be honest…” and he said, “no, no no, she’s been honest with me too but…”

    Oh no you haven’t. You’ve told him the truth, but you haven’t been honest. Truth is words, honesty is action.

    So take your forked tongue and stick it down someone else’s throat and leave my boy(s) alone.

    I’m done with you.

  • Lluis

    I like the way you’re clear and direct about this issue. Most of us guys really hate the idea of being bad people, honestly, we do. And the myth of the “bad boy” I feel has gone too far and is really confusing a lot of guys out there -I for one did play with this idea for some time, but realised that there are fine lines you cannot cross, and the line that separates a confident, cocky guy who is nevertheless kind and warm to people, from the asshole is one of them. Damn good audio!

  • Bob R.

    Marni, I am a new subscriber, am enjoying your teachings immensely, and would like to add one other point of consideration into this fray. What is the emotional maturity level of the women that are attracted to the “bad boy” man. I have been a “nice guy” all my life, and intend to stay that way. I have dated and married some of the most attractive women I have ever met. The most absolutely beautiful woman that I married was with me for 21 years, and we had an almost perfect relationship. A couple of the others did find someone else to be with, but I blame myself for that. I was raised to be a workaholic, and was. I thought that providing material things was the most important thing that I could do. WRONG!!!! I did not show them enough attention, they got bored with my working too many hours, and looked for attention some where else. The point I wanted to make is what stage is the woman at in her life–is she looking for the thrill, the excitement, the fling, OR is she truly looking for a man to spend the rest of her life with???

    I have been single for four years, since my wife died due to a car accident. I am looking for someone to marry, not for a fling. I am 5’8″ tall, and am certainly not an Adonis, and am 68 years old. Yet, I am still able to date amazingly beautiful girls in their 20’s and 30’s. I am on one dating web site that caters to the most beautiful women in the world, but is specifically designed for women that are truly, actually, specifically looking for a LIFE PARTNER–A HUSBAND!! To date, over 700 of these girls (and I do say girls because most of the ones that have written to me are in their twenties and thirties) are looking, NOT for the excitement of a fling, but for a man they want to spend their life with. Someone that they will feel safe with, that can provide for them, that will love and care for them. Ninety-five percent of these girls could appear on the cover of any magazine in the US!! Many are actual models, and have been winners in beauty contests. I am corresponding with five of them at this time, trying to decide which is most suited to my beliefs, goals, and which one most matches my mental, psychological, and physical expectations.

    From a beauty standpoint, virtually all 700 are more than acceptable. I am like a kid in a candy store–which one do I want. ALL of them are looking for a “nice guy”, and say so!! NO, they are not from the US, but from a country where the women still possess the beliefs and expectations relative to their life-partner and marriage, that our women had 30 to 40 years ago. Many have been abused by men from their country (the statistics of physical abuse of women there is several times higher than in the US and most of the men are alcoholics). The women there know this and are not willing to accept living with these “bad boys”! They are looking for a life partner, a husband, that will treat them with love, kindness, gentleness, and respect. They are no fools either. They ask some very specific questions about what you are like, and what your beliefs truly are–some are not easy to answer. I am not talking about “gold-diggers”. The ones I am talking to are doctors, lawyers, models, and all have very lucrative professions.

    My point is that a “nice guy” can win, but whether he does, will often depend a lot on “what is the girl is actually looking for”. A guy needs to find that out as early in his relationship as possible to avoid getting hurt as well as spending a lot of time and money on an immature thrill seeker.

    Thanks, Marni, for your insight, research, and wisdom. You ARE telling it like it is.

    • Wow Bob. Thank you for writing that. It feels very nice.

      I am so sorry about your late wife but so happy you have found such a great resource for meeting women who want what you want.

      Knowing what YOU want in life is so important. If there is a mis match of wants, connection/sex/dating/love can never happen. Or at least never amount to anything.

      Thanks for writing!

  • Star Rebel

    Bad Boys are great for weeding out all the immature shallow chicks. Thanks!

  • donny ahole

    The worse you treat them
    the more they want it

  • Mark

    Sorry Marni but I’ve field tested this one. My A-hole persona can get laid, I can’t. I can’t even get a phone number. It’s not reliable, but it works here and there. I know in 15 seconds if I’m going to get there or not, otherwise you gotta move on, sometimes quickly.

    • Marni Wing Girl

      I think the key is to be assertive but not rude.

      I guess it isn’t about taking on a whole new persona, but acting in a way that is confident, yet genuine to you

      Marni 🙂

  • Tim West

    Pardon my laughter, but that guy in the picture on the right (holding the car door open) looks like the pusher from ‘Reefer Madness’ or one of those old anti-drug films. 🙂

  • Donovan

    Nice Marni, that was a great talk. A suggestion tho: I think you might want to spell out more what you mean by boundaries, wimp, or self-respect. Thing is those words are abstract, and some of us guys might benefit from 1 or 2 specific examples…or we might only *think* we know what you’re talking about. Also, myself, I think the bad boys who act nice at first, then hurt a woman – are really just afraid of truly opening their hearts, of getting close. They are afraid really, of intimacy. And us overly ‘nice’ guys, we need to learn how to have what you could call,’positive agression’. I often think that Love (what we are all learning here on planet Earth) actually has *2* main qualities to it: attracting and repelling. And we need ’em both. Attracting refers to the warm magnetic quality of love that radiates out as a warm glow and is attractive. And the second quality of Love is repelling. It’s the ability to say, “No, honey, i’m not going out tonight, I’m too tired” And she can hear in his voice that he means it – because he’s expressing what could be called positive aggression in his voice. We could even call the repelling quality of love (self-love?) the masculine side of love. It’s in all of us, but if women want to feel it from guys especially. I sometimes think also that the warm attractive part of Love is more about upper body – heart and mind,etc. While the repelling, powerful, fierce at times part of love expresses more from the lower body. So it’s about being grounded, physically. Physical presence. This is why I myself might take a karate class! To become more of a bad(but good) boy! The quality of self-respect/boundaries I think isn’t just something we say, it’s gotta be felt…it’s a real energetic thing, not just some words from the mouth. It’s funny today…many people talk about love. But the real truth is: love requires power, or it doesn’t get too far. But U know all about that don’t you Marni – I’m sure you’re a powerful woman! (ps pls tell me if my posts are too long!

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Hey Donovan

      I agree that love does require power: it also requires you to love yourself, respect yourself, before you can truly do that for another person. I think that having boundaries then isn’t about being aggressive towards another person: it’s being ok to stand up for yourself in a calm and controlled way. ]

      It’s not yelling at her for coming home late: it’s about calmly explaining to her the next day that you’d like her to drop you a text if she’s planning on being way later than usual, because you care about her and want her to respect you.

      Thanks again

      Marni 🙂

  • niceguy

    Then why do I see so many women with jerks and aholes then?

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Hey Niceguy! (loving the name ;))
      Could you give me some more info? Are these couples you know personally?
      Marni 🙂

    • Asshole

      Because. We fuck them just the way the need it make them squirt and treat them like shit and they love it then we find others girls to mess around with not caring if the previous one approves.

  • niceguy

    This question is for Marni see previous post

  • thinker

    funny people how we don’t get to evaluate or help look into how to find a (nice) girl …we men assume they all are

    • Marni Wing Girl

      Very true, thinker!
      You should be looking for a woman just as confident and fun and she expects you to be!
      Marni 🙂

  • sp91546

    Dear Marni, how do you square your post with folks like Carlos Xuma?

    Thanks in advance.