What Women Want On A First Date

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Ever walked away from a first date thinking it went really well, only for her never to return your calls?

Facts are that men and women have very different ideas of what makes for a great first date: which is why you may think it’s a done deal, when she’s not ready for round 2.

As a guy you may see an attractive women in front of you, have a nice conversation for an hour or so, and assume that she’ll be equally interested in a second date. Problem is that women are often looking out for a much broader range of qualities that make you a keeper.

You may not even consider these points when you’re looking for a date: but women will be evaluating on whether they believe you have the right qualities to be a good match for them; whether you have the charisma to keep them interested; and what you can bring to their life long term.

To help you put the pieces of the puzzle together I asked 5 sexy, successful, single ladies to give you their HONEST opinions about what they’re looking out for on a first date:
Our panel:

Ria, 27, sales executive

Brittney, 28, admin coordinator

Haley, 31, retail consultant

Rebecca, 29, finance

Sarah, 34, accountant

Q: Imagine you’ve just met a guy for your first ‘official’ date: what’s the first thing you’re looking out for?

Haley: This sounds bad: but how much of a ‘man’ he is in organizing the date. I once had a guy ask me to make all the decisions as to where we’re going, what I wanted to do etc and it just felt really dull! Kind of like I was hanging out with my younger brother!

Brittney: Confidence definitely helps with that, I want a guy to take the lead!

Rebecca: Yes, if a guy is clearly super nervous, it makes me worry for him and think ‘this guy can’t handle me!’

Sarah: I’m a little different… I’m looking for a gentleman, someone who has manners, and is respectful. I don’t want to go out with an immature guy, or a rude one!

 

Q: What do you mean when you say ‘confident,’ Brittney?

Brittney: Confidence doesn’t mean being a jerk: it’s more like someone who is confident and calm within themselves. You don’t want a guy who apologizes about who he is or what he’s about: you want a man who’s comfortable with what he’s got to bring to the table.  I want to sit across the table from someone that feels like a man to me so that I can feel like a lady.  Ya know?

 

Q: Ok, it’s time to get real ladies, how important is a man’s success to you?

Ria: I’m actually not a huge fan of boastful guys. I mean, if a guy has a good job and loves his career that’s cool: but nothing comes off worse than when a guy can’t stop talking about how much money he’s making. I always think that seems to try hard, guys who are doing more humble things are fine by me!

Sarah: I grew up in a small town so I have similar values to that: honest work, enough money to live on, but no need to be flashy. Now I live in NYC though and- my god- it’s different so many guys will try to impress you with their wallet first.

Haley: I think you can live with a guy who maybe doesn’t have the best job, as long as he’s got some drive and ambition. You want to be with someone who’s going somewhere. So, if he’s a little broke right now, but that’s because he’s putting himself through med school: that’s cool, in fact it’s pretty admirable.

Brittney: Yes, I agree: ambition to be a better person is more important than just being rich here & now!

Rebecca: Listen, having cash is almost never a negative thing in my eyes but it’s certainly not the reason to continue dating a guy. I see it as a bonus if a guy has money. It’s honestly nice but it’s not the reason I would sleep with him or want to continue dating him. There has to be more or else the money is useless. Sorry, just being really honest.

 

Q: But what happens when it comes to paying for the date?

Haley: It doesn’t have to be an expensive date, drinks or coffee are fine, but I would expect a guy to pay, for sure. If he’s asked me out on a date I think it comes across as really rude when he wants to split the check. That said, if I really like a guy, then I’ll usually offer to pay for something: maybe the second round of drinks or the parking.

Rebecca: If a guy doesn’t pay for the first date, there will certainly not be a second one.  I’ve had a guy go dutch on me for a coffee date. I think the total bill was $7 tops.  It threw me off and left a bad taste in my mouth.  I know we say we want to be equal and stuff but that’s in the work force, not the dating space. It just makes me feel really unwanted and unfeminine if a guy wants me to pay on the first date.

Ria: Yeah, I wouldn’t want to date someone who’s overly thrifty. It’s fine to not have too much money, but when guys are ridiculously cheap it makes you worry about where he sees the relationship as going, and what it would be like in the future if you were in a relationship with him.

 

Q: And what about the actual type of date: do you need to go out to dinner?

Rebecca: No, but it kind of depends where you met the guy. If you met him via a dating site, or he approached you, you may go for something a little more formal than if he’s a friend of  a friend that you linked up with at a party.

Sarah: I think sometimes a restaurant can be way too much. A really fancy place too early on makes me feel like things are going too fast.

Brittney: Yes, I like to still feel like I have something to work for too: there’s no fun when it’s a done deal. I also hate it when guys get drunk or forget really simple manners. I’ve had guys forget key details about me mid-date: which has made me want to leave!

Ria: I also think that where you go is slightly less important than the guy’s overall presentation. You want him to have bothered to you know, wash, comb his hair, make sure his car is tidy: simple things, but they say a lot!

 

Q: How is it important for him to behave mid date?

Haley: I think, just like Ria said, you want him to have put a little effort in and, most importantly, make you feel like you’re the only girl in the room.

Sarah: The most important thing for me is no groping! Or lunging in to kiss you unexpectedly before you part- I hate that! A little touch to the small of the back to guide you across the street is fine though.

Rebecca: I like it when a guy has good values: when he speaks about his family, friends, co-workers, positively. Even occasionally mentioning ex’s is fine, as long as it’s light hearted. You want a good guy really: not a guy who’s a player, or who wants to act like one.

Ria: I think we’ve all had a couple of mid date make outs, ha.  I think it’s weird if the guy and I are just having a normal conversation and then he pounces on me wanting to make out. But if we’re in that vibe and feeling it, I’m totally down for a little make out session.

 

Q: Do you know during the 1st date if there’s going to be a 2nd date?

Haley: Honestly, YES.  I know pretty quickly if I am feeling a connection. I’ve been surprised mid date before but that doesn’t happen very often.

Sarah: I also know pretty early if the date is going to go anywhere. But I will say it also depends on what I want at that point in time.  If I’m on a date and I’m in the “I’m happy I’m single” mode, I may be more open to the guy. But if I’m in “I’m looking for my next boyfriend” mode, I decide pretty quickly. Doesn’t mean I won’t have fun on the date. I just won’t want a 2nd one if I’m not feeling that chemistry or a strong connection and desire to see him again.

Rebecca: I wish I could say that I was really open minded and non-judgmental but I’m not when it comes to guys I date.  I know within the first 5 minutes if I want to see this guy again.  I usually try my best to wrap up the date quickly and not lead him on in any way so that there is no confusion at the end of the date but sometimes it’s tough. Like when I really get along with the guy but I don’t feel anything more for him.  I’m sure he’s thinking “we’re having a great date” while I’m thinking “I totally want you to be my new best friend”.

Ria: Sometimes I go on dates where I really get along with a guy and I really wish I felt something more for him but I don’t.  It just isn’t clicking for me and I don’t know why.  I never say anything because I always assume he can feel it too.

 

Q: OK, let’s be brutal now: you went out, and you didn’t connect with him. What do you do next? Be honest!

Brittney: Let it die! Avoid calls, say you’re busy and hope he gives up? I know that sounds horrible but it seems nicer than just flat out telling a guy that he isn’t rocking your world.

Sarah: You have to make excuses sometimes: just to be polite.

Ria: I’ll usually blame myself! I may say I’m not into relationships right now, which is true, I’m not into having a relationship with him but of course if the right guy came along, I’d probably change my mind!

Want more information about women FROM WOMEN???

There are 1000′s of little things that men don’t know about women. But I guarantee if you knew them, it would put you in the top 1% of men that have their choice of women they want.  I can tell every little thing you need to know about women. Including the things that women would never want you to know. Read More…

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  • http://www.andreobrown.com/ André O. Brown

    I wish more women were this honest and expressive in general. On second thought, it may not even be honesty that’s the issue. The real factor is knowing what they want. Too many women (and by extension people) are not comfortable in their skin, and don’t know what they want. And if they don’t know what they want, they won’t be able to express it.

  • http://twitter.com/VegaDelight Mike

    Dating is not as hard as it seems once you understand women! Women hate conflicts, they want to protect a guys feelings if there is no connection. However, avoiding calls, saying your busy, making a whole much of excuses is not the way to go. If the date went well, a guy is excited, he assumes a second date, of course if the date didn’t go well, he doesn’t assume another date. But when he’s excited, thinking the date went well, and his calls are being avoided, many excuses are being made, it does more harm than good for a guy’s feelings. The best way to be honest with your feelings to your date one way or the other. He may be happy or disappointed, wondering what went wrong, but all a woman can say to a guy…it’s not your fault, it wasn’t meant to be, I wish you well! Of course you want to see him again, you give him a lot of signs, sometimes guys don’t pick up on it right away…

  • Anonymous

    I feel sorry for the women who were interviewed, poor things. Sounds like they have gone out with some guys who have no idea what they are doing nor even how to act around
    and treat a beautiful, intelligent and attractive woman. Having said that, even guys have to start somewhere! Kudos to the boys for trying to date some clearly experienced, motivated, independent and successful 21st century women. It is so good to know that these kinds of women are actually out there! Being, “a man” is not something you are born with, it is learned through all the highs and lows of life. Sometimes it just takes a bit of time to be, “the man” . Thanks for all the help by the way Marni oxo.

    Guys can be way more sexier if they just remember to maintain that worldly, grounded, it is not all about me perspective when they are out there. Sure, go out, have a great time, live your life and chase your dreams but just don’t get wrapped up in the one woman, especially one you just met! This I would imagine can be off putting and scary for a woman. It is so difficult for men to remember because it is way too easy to get wrapped up in a woman’s outer beauty, along with, “the chase” and ultimately stop thinking. We (guys) forget to slow down and explore the potential inner beauty of the woman sitting in front of us. Ask yourself, “What is it that you like about her?”, use the date to connect and get to know her better, tease her, have fun with her, relate to her, challenge her, make eye contact, look at how she interacts with the world, how she sees things, ask her opinion on things that come up in conversation ect. but please don’t place all your hopes and dreams on one woman who you have just met, that is silly and I think happens far too often. Such pressure for a woman who probably has enough things to deal with without a needy guys crap. Remember you have the whole world and the rest of your life to find your sweetheart! Live life and enjoy the moments!

    • M

      This guy is a total “player”…

  • Pingback: What Women Want On A First Date « PUA Central()

  • skwISBACK

    “If he’s asked me out on a date I think it comes across as really rude when he wants to split the check.”

    How would this sound?

    “It comes across as really rude if a woman expects to get equal pay for equal work.” I haven’t read anything more sexist than this in my entire life.

    Rude if a guy expects a woman act as an equal, if she wants to be treated as an equal?

    “I know we say we want to be equal and stuff but that’s in the work force, not the dating space.”

    Total F*cking hypocrisy. This is like saying “I want equality when it benefits me, and I want inequality when it doesn’t benefit me”

    Marni, if you had any *ovaries* you’d challenge women when they say hypocritical stuff like this rather than pump it back towards us guys and say “see guys, we’re fucked up, we can’t do anything about it, but this is how fucked up we are so you might as well learn it”

    Women that expect guys to pay are essentially “gold diggers” ! If thats what you are, then fine, come out and admit thats what you are! Don’t try and hide or conceal it by saying “it’s not about the money etc etc..”

    • MD

      I don’t think an angry guy who wants women to be socially pressured into approaching him really has much to say about fairness, hypocrisy or equality. You appear to have the “balls” to troll on here but not the “balls” to take personal responsibility for your own life. May I recommend your next username; SKWISAJOKE.

      • skwISBACK

        “I don’t think an angry guy who wants women to be socially pressured into approaching him really has much to say about fairness, hypocrisy or equality”

        I want either both men and women to have equal pressure, or equally no pressure. That in fact is the definition of fairness.

        Any woman that says “I want fairness in the workspace but inequality in the dating space” in my view is an outright hypocrite.

        • MD

          No, your argument is not the very definition of fairness. We’ve established that. You think wing girls should be obligated to sleep with men. That’s not fair. You want women to change their behaviour until it fits in line with an idea that rattles around in your head. That’s not fair. You are not the judge of women’s behaviour. When a woman approaches you, you turn it into a bizarre power game that’s all about you. That’s not fair. You make sweeping, assumption riddled guesses about individual women’s experience. That’s not fair. And you want women to feel bad about approaching but be pressured into doing it anyway. Again, not fair.

          You won’t change your behaviour, attitudes, beliefs etc but you want women to change theirs. That’s not fair.

          Let’s get real here: the world according to SKW is not going to happen. You’re not going to change society or other people until they fit with what you want them to be. End of. We’ve had discussion before where you refuse to meet women at their model of the world and you won’t even connect with a woman when she does approach you. If you won’t connect with women when they do approach you then why should women make life fairer for you? Why should they care about your experience in the dating process? Why should they approach you? What have you got to offer them?

          Surely any man with an ounce of logic in his head would spend less time ranting about supposed hypocrisy of women he’s never met and a lot more time finding out what the women he finds attractive actually want in a guy?

          • SKWisBack

            “No, your argument is not the very definition of fairness. We’ve established that. You think wing girls should be obligated to sleep with men. That’s not fair. ”

            That’s different. I’m talking about women like Marni that take money from sucker guys promising them the world via their rhetoric. Any business would do right by offering a “satisfaction guaranteed,” and in the case of women that make outlandish claims about men getting laid, well, it’s clearly obvious what satisfaction guaranteed is. There’s no question of fairness at all, it’s a question of what’s a good business practice and like I said if a woman was that confident her material was sound, the failsafe would never be activated.

            As usual you conflate 2 completely disparate things, and prove your inability to engage in an even moderately reasoned debate.

            “You want women to change their behaviour until it fits in line with an idea that rattles around in your head. That’s not fair.”

            Yes it is, because it just so happens the idea that rattles around in my head is fairness between genders. Instead of changing the topic- why not answer the question you’ve been asked over and over again by me:

            Under what reasoning is it fair for men to continually be forced to make direct, verbal approaches (and by extension, expenditures) while women not subject to that level of confidence-having in the dating process. that is, they are able to sit back and wait (and be less proactive – not completely inactive, but certainly LESS proactive) in their “approach”

            This idea of the money not mattering and men only paying for “$7 coffees” is ridiculous, can a dating relationship sustain on walks in the park and coffees alone? No. the dates get more expensive, and if you’ve initially set precedent of paying for the woman, then that will continue through the relationship, and that’s what makes it unfair (unless the woman is not a feminist and believes that men are in charge, should pay and get to make decisions as well)

          • MD

            “That’s different. I’m talking about women like Marni that take money
            from sucker guys promising them the world via their rhetoric.”

            Where does Marni promise guys the world? Are you suggesting that anyone who has ever paid for Marni’s products is a “sucker guys”?

            “Any business would do right by offering a “satisfaction guaranteed,” and in the case of women that make outlandish claims about men getting laid, well, it’s clearly obvious what satisfaction guaranteed is.”

            Where are these outlandish claims that Marni makes? If someone buys a product and they have a problem with it/don’t think it’s very good then it’s understandable for them to get in touch with the seller to discuss things or ask for a refund. But at no point should any woman offering dating advice to guys (or any woman at all for that matter) be obligated or made to feel obligated to sleep with someone.

            “There’s no question of fairness at all, it’s a question of what’s a good business practice and like I said if a woman was that confident her material was sound, the failsafe would never be activated.”

            What you don’t seem to get is the “failsafe” you talk about is attempting to obligate a woman into sleeping with someone. It’s unfair and aggressive and dehumanizes the woman.

            “Under what reasoning is it fair for men to continually be forced to make direct, verbal approaches (and by extension, expenditures) while women not subject to that level of confidence-having in the dating process. that is, they are able to sit back and wait (and be less proactive – not completely inactive, but certainly LESS proactive) in their “approach”.

            As a man, whose forcing you to make a direct, verbal approach? If you don’t make an approach, what happens to you? Are you arrested and taken in for questioning?

            Society is not that concerned with your love life. Life is not fair and there does remain a stereotype that the man is the one who makes the first move. But in reality, people meet in all kinds of different ways. Not all women can just sit back and wait. Not all women get approached all the time and many women have to be very proactive in their search for a partner for various reasons.

            You seem to frame “talking to people” as being a huge burden full of emotional risk. That’s very insecure thinking. You don”t lose anything by talking to someone. Sure, rejection hurts. But it’s a man with a very big ego who makes all rejections about him.

            “This idea of the money not mattering and men only paying for “$7
            coffees” is ridiculous, can a dating relationship sustain on walks in
            the park and coffees alone? No. the dates get more expensive, and if
            you’ve initially set precedent of paying for the woman, then that will
            continue through the relationship, and that’s what makes it unfair
            (unless the woman is not a feminist and believes that men are in charge,should pay and get to make decisions as well)”.

            There’s no law that says the man has to pay for the dates. Some women will want the man to pay. Others won’t. But the man is in charge of what he spends his own money on. If he decides to start and keep paying for everything then that’s something he’s decided to do. It’s not an unfairness handed down by society. It’s something he is doing to himself. Each woman is different with different wants and desires. If a woman wants the guy to pay for everything and the guy is happy with that, cool. If the guy is not happy with that then he needs to sort it out.

            There are many date ideas which cost nothing or little and there’s no requirement for the dates to get more expensive. On account of it being the 21st century, women earn their own money these days and don’t always want guys to pay for things.

          • skwisBACK

            “What you don’t seem to get is the “failsafe” you talk about is attempting to obligate a woman into sleeping with someone. It’s unfair and aggressive and dehumanizes the woman.”

            and would never happen if the WingGirl in question was good in her craft. It’s fair to spew rhetoric to guys claiming to get them laid, get women to do “anything they want”, then not offer satisfaction guaranteed.”

            “There’s no law that says the man has to pay for the dates. Some women will want the man to pay. Others won’t.”

            Ther’s no law that says you should ramble on posting idiocy, yet you do it anyway, consistently I might add.

            Are you that stupid? one of the clear messages of this post is essentially a message to a guy: “pay on the first date”

          • MD

            “and would never happen if the WingGirl in question was good in her
            craft. It’s fair to spew rhetoric to guys claiming to get them laid, get
            women to do “anything they want”, then not offer satisfaction
            guaranteed.”

            Whether the “failsafe” would likely be triggered or not is not the issue. The issue is that attempting to obligate women into sleeping with you is simply not on.

            “Ther’s no law that says you should ramble on posting idiocy, yet you do it anyway, consistently I might add.”

            I strongly suspect you of trolling. But when the mood takes me I respond to your posts by pointing out your hypocrisy, anger towards women and inability to see beyond your own beliefs and pain.

            “Are you that stupid? one of the clear messages of this post is essentially a message to a guy: “pay on the first date”.

            No, I’m not stupid. This post features contributions from individual women. It features the opinions of individual women. Some women will want a guy to pay on the first date whilst others won’t.

          • skwISBack

            “Whether the “failsafe” would likely be triggered or not is not the issue. The issue is that attempting to obligate women into sleeping with you is simply not on.”

            As it’s equally not on to make the kind of outlandish claims that Marni does on this very site, it’s misrepresentative and borderline cruel, convincing guys she can get “women to do what they want” Why aren’t you lambasting such rhetoric with the same veracity? Well, because you are an incosistent moron

          • MD

            “As it’s equally not on to make the kind of outlandish claims that Marni
            does on this very site, it’s misrepresentative and borderline cruel,
            convincing guys she can get “women to do what they want” Why aren’t you lambasting such rhetoric with the same veracity? Well, because you are an incosistent moron”

            An inconsistent moron? This from the guy who talks about fairness but wants wing girls to be obligated to sleep with men.

            If you don’t resonate with the things Marni has to say then why are you still here? That’s not to say that everyone on here agrees or must agree with Marni. Just that you seem exceptionally bothered by the kind of things Marni says. Were I exceptionally bothered by things said on a website, I would not visit that website. If you feel other people should have your views and follow your example, fair enough. But it’s up to other people to decide whether they get any benefit from this site.

            I see no evidence that Marni is misrepresenting anything or being borderline cruel.

          • skwIsBack

            “An inconsistent moron? This from the guy who talks about fairness but wants wing girls to be obligated to sleep with men.”

            Again you idiot, I dont “want wing girls to be obligated” rather I just say IF a person uses rhetoric promising the sexual interaction and TAKES MONEY with that goal clearly in mind, it would behoove that person to offer a satisfaction guaranteed clause. The question of sleeping with anyone is only brought up because the WOMAN in question is using such strong rhetoric to rope customers in. I know you’re moronic self won’t comprehend this, but I’ll once again share some of that rhetoric:

            The title text on the website:
            “The Funny Thing Is She Already Wants You, You Just Don’t Know How
            To Get Her. Until Now!”

            “get her” to me implies sex. obviously I don’t think Marni offering to train guys to kidnap women and hold them captive.

            From the about page:

            “My job as a wing girl is to teach you everything you need to know to attract, date and get any girl you want.

            “get any girl” again, implies sexually.

            The title of her book: “Get Inside Her” – obviously a double meaning

            The name of her product:

            “How To Become A Man Women Want”

            So the rhetoric is pretty blatant

            “Just that you seem exceptionally bothered by the kind of things Marni says”

            only in certain instances, some of it is helpful, some if it is clearly illogical… maybe it’s my calling to prevent guys from flushing their hard earned money down the toilet?

            Somehow I don’t think she and you really realize what exactly she’s doing, she’s claiming she can change a person’s experience and life in one of the most lasting and profound ways EVER.

            She’s not claiming we’ll feel better for a day or a week, No, shes claiming to alter people’s lives FOREVER and offering such significant changes I hope she realizes the gravity of such a role. If she didn’t want that kind of responsibility she should work at hooters and serve buffalo wings, that way she could still be a wing girl, but not be held to the same level of scrutiny.

          • MD

            “Again you idiot, I dont “want wing girls to be obligated” rather I just
            say IF a person uses rhetoric promising the sexual interaction and TAKES MONEY with that goal clearly in mind, it would behoove that person to offer a satisfaction guaranteed clause.”

            And you suggested that that satisfaction guaranteed clause be “taking one for the team” or basically sex with the guy. So, yes, you did suggest that wing girls should be obligated to sleep with guys.

            “The question of sleeping with anyone is only brought up because the
            WOMAN in question is using such strong rhetoric to rope customers in. I know you’re moronic self won’t comprehend this, but I’ll once again
            share some of that rhetoric:”

            You’re still suggesting that a woman sleep with someone as part of a satisfaction guarantee. Which is obligating someone into sleeping with someone.

            “So the rhetoric is pretty blatant”

            Leaving aside the notion that your interpretation of Marni’s rhetoric is simply your interpretation (i.e: it’s not always just about sex just because you think it is), the rhetoric doesn’t matter. No woman, regardless of the rhetoric she uses, should be obligated or pressured into sleep with guys.

            “only in certain instances, some of it is helpful, some if it is clearly
            illogical… maybe it’s my calling to prevent guys from flushing their
            hard earned money down the toilet?”

            Nobody here is pressured into buying anything and any guy can come on here and look at the advice for free. It’s up to the guys themselves how they spend their own money. You’re free to voice your opinion but you’ve never proved that Marni’s advice is wrong or damaging or “won’t work”. Most of your posts aren’t even about the advice given. They’re usually essays on what you think fairness is and stuff about your beliefs about women.

            “She’s not claiming we’ll feel better for a day or a week, No, shes
            claiming to alter people’s lives FOREVER and offering such significant
            changes I hope she realizes the gravity of such a role. If she didn’t
            want that kind of responsibility she should work at hooters and serve
            buffalo wings, that way she could still be a wing girl, but not be held
            to the same level of scrutiny.”

            Where, exactly, is Marni claiming to alter people’s lives forever. She gives dating advice and coaching to men and women.

            Whilst you are entitled to your opinions and to disagree, you have no authority to scrutinize what Marni does just as you have no authority to judge the behaviour of women.

            Marni makes it very clear that she won’t change our lives forever. She reminds us that we are the ones who make changes in our lives. Other people can help but it is up to us to make changes and heal past hurts. It’s up to us to change limiting beliefs that hold us back.

          • skwisTruth

            “And you suggested that that satisfaction guaranteed clause be “taking one for the team” or basically sex with the guy. So, yes, you did suggest that wing girls should be obligated to sleep with guys.”

            yes of course, but only because that is what their rhetoric promises in the first place. so their obligation is their own doing, if they have the audacity to make such promises, they should back them up. Otherwise, it’s unscrupulous business practice.”

            “You’re still suggesting that a woman sleep with someone as part of a satisfaction guarantee. Which is obligating someone into sleeping with someone.”

            have you heard of a sexual surrogate ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_surrogate

            So, this does exist. If you see one, you are *guaranteed* to have sex, why? because that’s what they promise. They are the one’s who are making the promise. I’m saying it would just be good business practice for wing girls to offer the same level of satisfaction.

          • MD

            “yes of course, but only because that is what their rhetoric promises in
            the first place. so their obligation is their own doing, if they have
            the audacity to make such promises, they should back them up. Otherwise,it’s unscrupulous business practice.”

            Regardless of the rhetoric they use or the promises they might make, no woman should be obligated or pressured into sleeping with anyone.

            “So, this does exist. If you see one, you are *guaranteed* to have sex,
            why? because that’s what they promise. They are the one’s who are making the promise. I’m saying it would just be good business practice for wing girls to offer the same level of satisfaction.”

            There is a world of difference between a sexual surrogate and a wing girl. A wing girl makes no promises that you are guaranteed to get laid and she is not offering sexual services of any description. She is offering advice, support and help in your search to find a partner/date/sex/relationship.

            Attempting to obligate a wing girl into sleeping with a guy is simply vile. As is attempting to obligate any woman into sleeping with anyone. And what kind of man would want his wing girl to be obligated and pressured into sleeping with him? What kind of man would want any woman to be pressured into sleeping with him?

          • skwISTRUTH

            “Regardless of the rhetoric they use or the promises they might make, no woman should be obligated or pressured into sleeping with anyone.”

            Then they shouldn’t make claims they through their products and services they can provide that experience.

            “She is offering advice, support and help in your search to find a partner/date/sex/relationship.”

            In the small fine print perhaps, but in the rhetoric that I’ve posted, it’s clear what they’re offering. exactly that.

            “And what kind of man would want his wing girl to be obligated and pressured into sleeping with him?”

            The kind that wants to feel better about spending his money, let me ask you a question, if you had 2 “wing girls” to choose from, and both said their advice could make you more attractive leading to sex, but one of them said, “and if you don’t get laid, I’ll make sure you get laid…”

            which would you choose? never mind what is vile or whether it’s right or wrong to obligate anyone. Based on having those two choices, which would you choose

          • MD

            “Then they shouldn’t make claims they through their products and services they can provide that experience.”

            Regardless of the claims they make or the rhetoric they use, no woman should be pressured or obligated into sleeping with anyone (the same is true for any man).

            “In the small fine print perhaps, but in the rhetoric that I’ve posted, it’s clear what they’re offering. exactly that.”

            I would say that the dating advice Marni offers is in fairly big print on this website rather than in the small fine print. You didn’t post the rhetoric. You posted your interpretation of that rhetoric. You posted what you personally think Marni’s rhetoric means/implies.

            “The kind that wants to feel better about spending his money,”

            Do you have some sort of problem with basic human empathy? It’s not a question of money. It’s a question of the feelings, emotions, personalities and general well being of the women/wing girls. It’s called caring about another person besides yourself.

            “let me ask you a question, if you had 2 “wing girls” to choose from, and both said their advice could make you more attractive leading to sex, but one of them said, “and if you don’t get laid, I’ll make sure you get laid…which would you choose? never mind what is vile or whether it’s right or
            wrong to obligate anyone. Based on having those two choices, which
            would you choose”.
            I would choose the wing girl who did not say “and if you don’t get laid, I’ll make sure you get laid”. Why? Because the only time I want a woman to sleep with me is when she wants to. Under no circumstances do I want a woman to feel obligated or pressured into sleeping with me.

            What you’re attempting to advocate is basically a form of rape. The pressuring and coercion of a woman into sleeping with a guy as part of a bizarre business satisfaction guarantee. It’s selfish, sexist and morally bankrupt notion. It’s also self obsessed and shows no regard for the woman, her feelings or her needs.

            And look at what your own argument says about you. You’re acting as if women should or need to be pressured into sleeping with you. You’re not entertaining the idea that they might want to sleep with you of their own free will. Women are human beings whether they want to have sex with you or not. If you want to get better with women, drill that truth into your head as soon as possible.

          • skwISTRUTH

            “Regardless of the claims they make or the rhetoric they use, no woman should be pressured or obligated into sleeping with anyone (the same is true for any man).”

            Not true. if I claim my business will provide an experience (or increase likelihood in providing that experience) it behoves me to provide a guarantee, so many businesses do this. I haven’t brought the question of sexual pleasure in the discussion, the wing woman has.

            “Do you have some sort of problem with basic human empathy? It’s not a question of money. It’s a question of the feelings, emotions, personalities and general well being of the women/wing girls”

            Oh I see, you enjoy being this selectiv? when it comes time for wing women to deliver their end , then all of a sudden human empathy is the primary factor to consider, but when I’ve continually asked Marni to release her products time and service for free and trust that men will pay when successful – then all of a sudden “I have to learn how a business operates” and all proper laws and etiquette of business must be followed. Where is this all-important human empathy factor at that moment? At that moment then its “guys are on their own, they are free to choose what to spend their money on, and oh by the way if it doesn’t yield success – tough crap you made the purchase”

            Before calling others morally bankrupt how bout you take a look at your own hypocrisy first?

            “I would choose the wing girl who did not say “and if you don’t get laid, I’ll make sure you get laid”. Why? Because the only time I want a woman to sleep with me is when she wants to. Under no circumstances do I want a woman to feel obligated or pressured into sleeping with me.”

            That’s total BS. and you’re certainly free to say no to the woman that has offered that deal, so whether you’d accept the offer is not the question. you havent’ really answerd the question, the question is, the very fact she would offer such a guarantee in my view shows her belief in the product/service offered. again you completely miss the point.

            And it’s not rape because she is consenting to the act a priori.

            “It’s selfish, sexist and morally bankrupt notion. It’s also self obsessed and shows no regard for the woman, her feelings or her needs.”

            bla bla.. instead you want me to be physically bankrupt by spending money on products/service that don’t yield any success.

            Yes “satisfaction guaranteed” is such a bizarre notion in business, it’s only mentioned in these places:

            http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/index.aspx?page=ordering.aspx
            http://www.zazzle.com/mk/welcome/first/ourpromise
            http://www.rei.com/help/guarantee.html
            http://www.orvis.com/intro.aspx?subject=111
            .. there a couple thousand others.. I’ll let you find them.

            http://www.zazzle.com/mk/welcome/first/ourpromise

          • MD

            “Not true. if I claim my business will provide an experience (or increase
            likelihood in providing that experience) it behoves me to provide a
            guarantee, so many businesses do this. I haven’t brought the question ofsexual pleasure in the discussion, the wing woman has.”

            Yes, many businesses do offer guarantees for their products and services. These usually take the form of refunds, returns etc. They do not take the form of obligating someone into sleeping with someone they do not wish to sleep with. Rape is not a satisfaction guarantee.

            “Oh I see, you enjoy being this selectiv?”

            No, I care about the feelings of people other than myself.

            “when it comes time for wing women to deliver their end , then all of a sudden human empathy is the primary factor to consider, but when I’ve continually asked Marni to release her products time and service for free and trust that men will pay when successful – then all of a sudden “I have to learn how a business operates” and all proper laws and etiquette of business must be followed.”

            Okay, I’m going to start by pointing out to you that a wing girl is not a prostitute. She is not there to deliver sex to anyone. She is there to advise and offer encouragement. Human empathy is always an important thing to consider and the well being of another person is always an important consideration. And yes, you do need to learn how a business operates. You may well get free samples of products at the supermarket but you can’t take the food home, eat it and then come back and pay if you liked it. You buy the product. It’s how a business works.

            “Where is this all-important human empathy factor at that
            moment? At that moment then its “guys are on their own, they are free to choose what to spend their money on, and oh by the way if it doesn’t yield success – tough crap you made the purchase”

            Any person is free to decide what they spend their money on. If they have a problem with the product they have purchased then they can take that up with the seller of the product. Guys are not on their own. They have certain laws protecting their purchases. But those laws and guarantees do not include rape.

            “That’s total BS. and you’re certainly free to say no to the woman that
            has offered that deal, so whether you’d accept the offer is not the
            question. you havent’ really answerd the question, the question is, the
            very fact she would offer such a guarantee in my view shows her belief
            in the product/service offered. again you completely miss the point.”

            You asked me which wing girl I would choose. I told you. Your views about her belief in the product or service are not my concern.”

            “And it’s not rape because she is consenting to the act a priori”

            She’s being pressured and coerced into sleeping with a guy as part of a bizarre business satisfaction grantee. Being forced against her will to do something she does not actually wish to do in order to validate her services in the mind of someone who is in serious need of therapy. We call that: rape.

            “bla bla.. instead you want me to be physically bankrupt by spending money on products/service that don’t yield any success.”

            Your concern for the well being of women is, as ever, touching. If you have a problem with a product or service, get a refund. There is absolutely no need to attempt to obligate anyone into sleeping with you. Don’t like a product? Get a refund.

            “Yes “satisfaction guaranteed” is such a bizarre notion in business, it’s only mentioned in these places:”

            Satisfaction guarantees are not bizarre notions in business. Rape as a satisfaction guarantee is a bizarre, illegal and morally bankrupt notion that does not exist in business for very good reason.

          • skwisTRUTH

            “They do not take the form of obligating someone into sleeping with someone they do not wish to sleep with. Rape is not a satisfaction guarantee.”

            It’s not rape you idiot, if it’s offered as a term of the agreement, it’s consensual. Secondly, as I’ve said a million times but what you do not seem to comprehend, is the satisfaction guaranteed is defined by what the business claims to offer. If it’s a working computer, then that’s what I expect, if it’s success with women, that’s what I expect.

            “Okay, I’m going to start by pointing out to you that a wing girl is not a prostitute. She is not there to deliver sex to anyone.”

            No, but she does claim to make you more sexually attractive thereby resulting in more sex for you.

            “You asked me which wing girl I would choose. I told you.”

            and I told you your rationale for choosing, is BS. Because anyone who would have the gumption to make such a claim clearly truly believes in what she’s doing.

            “Being forced against her will to do something she does not actually wish to do in order to validate her services in the mind of someone who is in serious need of therapy”

            It’s not against her will you retard. She’s agreeing to it because it’s what she is taking money for – ie to increase your sexual value. (in an indirect manner, not a direct manner as a prostitute)

            “Your concern for the well being of women is, as ever, touching. If you have a problem with a product or service, get a refund. There is absolutely no need to attempt to obligate anyone into sleeping with you. Don’t like a product? Get a refund.”

            Sure, refunds are acceptable, as I’ve said earlier. So are future sessions.

            I’m saying from the point of view of the person taking money, offering such a guarantee, in my view solidifies and removes any notion the wingwoman is trying to “rook” me. Is it extreme? Also, many wingwomen don’t even offer refunds.

            The real problem here is the person taking money can absolve themselves by shifting the responsibility onto the person paying saying it’s their “responsibility to change” gee really? I needed to pay someone $200 an hour to have them tell me it’s my responsibility to change ?

            That’s more bizarre, and morally bankrupt than anything I’ve suggested, taking money from someone promising them changes in their life experience then just offsetting the responsibility onto them and say , “oh you didn’t get what you want? oops well, it’s your fault! go change yourself!”

          • skwISback

            “”Okay, I’m going to start by pointing out to you that a wing girl is not a prostitute. She is not there to deliver sex to anyone.”No, but she does claim to make you more sexually attractive thereby resulting in more sex for you.”

            Indirectly that’s exactly what she’s there for, as I said, “get women” implies (but not limited to) greater sexual success with women – does it not?

          • skw

            By the way, just to show you I’m not gender biased, I’m equally critical of all the male counterparts that claim to increase your success with women – and take money to do so.

            obviously they themselves can’t provide guarantees of sexual activity, but their failsafes should be having their female friends take one for the team.

          • MD

            Pretty sure you’re trolling. Unless you really do advocate the rape of female friends of male pick up artists.
            If you actually believe the stuff you write then it’s fairly clear why you can’t get dates.

          • skwW

            I cant get dates because I haven’t been born with sufficient good looks during a critical period in which looks are important to women, (adolescence, say middle school through college) and therefore have been behind the curve (ie never on par with the women of my age in terms of experience)

            I also haven’t been born into a family of wealth, so that I can overcome the lack of looks with a nice place, a nice car, expensive clothes, etc..

            I’m also brutally honest and authentic, for example, when I state the clear advantages women have in dating, by being able to sit back and wait while men do all the initial work- which many women don’t find attractive.

            Which I agree, it may not be attractive, but it’s completely true by any objective measure. I’ve already debated you into the ground on this issue,

            You have yet to answer that fundamental question of if women are incurring the same amount of emotional risk by standing around waiting, why don’t they approach? You’ve said in the past that some women may lack the confidence to approach yet have enough confidence to put themselves out there and wait to be approached (thereby negating your earlier supposition that it’s an equal amount of risk or confidence necessary to make a direct verbal approach vs ‘putting yourself out there’ waiting to be approached)

            (if you advocate I misrepresent myself in order to be more attractive, that is fine, just be clear about what you’re advocating)

            These are the objective reasons why I cannot get dates.

          • MD

            “I cant get dates because I haven’t been born with sufficient good looks
            during a critical period in which looks are important to women,
            (adolescence, say middle school through college) and therefore have been behind the curve (ie never on par with the women of my age in terms of experience)”.

            So how do you explain the average and below average guys out there right now getting dates, sex and relationships? One minute you argue it’s your looks stopping you and then you say it’s your experience. But your experience is low because you hold yourself back with a belief about your looks.

            You’ve never debated anyone into the ground on anything. Because this is not a debate. You’re trolling and I’m responding to your trolling. A debate requires both parties to listen to, understand and respect the other person’s point of view. I’ve done that with you. But you always think you are right. You even told me that you believe people who disagree with you are misinformed. You can’t debate someone who believes he is always right about everything.
            From what you said, it seems you lack social skills, respect for other people, empathy for other people and you can’t separate the things you believe from objective fact. Which means you get angry when people disagree with you.

            Despite having no idea what women experience in dating, you make sweeping guesses that tie in with your subjective beliefs about women and the dating process. All of which is basically a distraction from actually taking personal responsibility for your own life.

            Life can be tough. You were not the only person to be bullied or to not be a lady’s man during their teenage years. But I took personal responsibility for my own life. I decided to stop blaming other people and getting angry about the past.

            In the time it’s taken for you to troll here, you could have taken personal responsibility for your own life and become more attractive to women. But I guess trolling and being aggressive and sexist towards women who you supposedly want to attract is more fun?

            It’s not up to women or society to change. It’s up to you.

          • skw

            “One minute you argue it’s your looks stopping you and then you say it’s your experience.”

            No, I’m arguing that it’s my looks during a critical period when looks are of maximal importance that affected my experience. I stated this clearly, and it’s completely clear to anyone that knows how to read.

            “You’ve never debated anyone into the ground on anything. Because this is not a debate. You’re trolling and I’m responding to your trolling. A debate requires both parties to listen to, understand and respect the other person’s point of view. I’ve done that with you.”

            This has gotta be the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read recorded in the history of mankind. Get what I’m saying, there has been no more ridiculous statement ever recorded. ever. Mein Kempf and the North Korean bill of rights comes in a distant second compared to this. I’ve debated with many people on this very forum and engaged in exactly what you describe. An honest description where people actually read what other’s write. if you seriously claim you engage in this, you don’t need therapy, you need an alien spaceship to come and harvest your brain.

            I respect everyones point of view when it’s rooted in a shared foundational reality that must exist for any debate to take place, you claim that you’ve “done that with me” yet just above I’ve proved how you failed to read a basic assertion of mine, and strawmann’d it into something else and disproved that. This is a constant cycle with you. You can dismiss it as “trolling” if you wish, but I’m not saying success for me is impossible, just that it’s going to be very very difficult given my starting point.

          • MD

            “No, I’m arguing that it’s my looks during a critical period when looks
            are of maximal importance that affected my experience”.

            You did not have some looks you think you ought to have had years ago so girls did not throw themselves at you so now you can’t get dates.

            That’s a belief in your head not objective reality. Plenty of guys who were not good looking as teenagers are out there now having sex, getting dates and relationships.

            “This has gotta be the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read recorded in the history of mankind. Get what I’m saying, there has been no more ridiculous statement ever recorded. ever. Mein Kempf and the North Korean bill of rights comes in a distant second compared to this. I’ve debated with many people on this very forum and engaged in exactly what you describe. An honest description where people actually read what other’s write. if you seriously claim you engage in this, you don’t need therapy, you need an alien spaceship to come and harvest your brain.”

            I see you’ve stopped pretending to be rational. You’re not debating. You don’t listen to what other people say and you don’t respect others either. You troll with the aim of upsetting people.

            “I respect everyones point of view when it’s rooted in a shared
            foundational reality that must exist for any debate to take place,”

            Look, you’ve already said that people who believe things different to what you believe are, in your view, misinformed. You don’t respect other people or their opinions. You show no respect to Marni or people who disagree with you. The amount of times you’ve called me a “moron”. You get irrationally angry and overly emotional at the drop of a hat and have a noticeably sexist and aggressive attitude towards women. You’re not debating. You’re trolling. You always believe you are right and refuse to listen to other people.

            “you claim that you’ve “done that with me” yet just above I’ve proved how you failed to read a basic assertion of mine, and strawmann’d it into something else and disproved that. This is a constant cycle with you. You can dismiss it as “trolling” if you wish, but I’m not saying successfor me is impossible, just that it’s going to be very very difficult
            given my starting point.”

            I’m not dismissing it as trolling: you’re rude, aggressive, refuse to leave when you’re banned, you insult people, you write sexist, angry stuff about women, you advocate rape, you think you are always right, you revel in tales of bullying random strippers…yeah, you’re a troll. You’ve got loads of different usernames. Classic troll behaviour.

            Your starting point is not having some looks you think you should have had years ago. That’s a great starting point compared to where many other guys start. From the sounds of thing, most of the stuff that holds you back is your own beliefs and attitudes and lack of control over your emotions. You can fix all of that by taking personal responsibility. If you decide not to, that’s your own business and not the responsibility of women or society.

          • Andrew

            how do you know those guys are average or below average looking?

          • MD

            Because you don’t get to 7 billion people on planet earth with only “good looking people” having sex. By definition, people of all shapes and sizes are out there having sex right now. Of course, to their partners, they may be the best looking guys ever. Who knows. Point is: lots of people with lots of different looks having sex.

          • Andrew

            And you are saying, implying, that it is mainly average or below average looking guys having sex but not so much average or below average looking women

          • MD

            No. I’m saying that people of all shapes and sizes are out there having sex and have been having sex. Hence the population boom. It is not only the “good looking” guys having sex. It is not only the “good looking” women having sex. Fat people have sex. Thin people have sex. Bald people have sex. People with hair have sex. Lots of people have sex. Sex is not restricted to people of a particular “look”.

          • MD

            Again: a wing girl is not a prostitute. I know you’re trolling but I hope you are able to tell the difference between a wing girl and a prostitute.

          • skwIsRealDeal

            Of course, a prostitute offers the act of sex with her directly.

            A wing girl offers advice, materials, and a set of actions that if taken, (as stated by her) will yield success with women (which includes but isn’t limited to, the act of sex with a woman, from whom the client/customer desires). To say that wingwomen, such as Marni are not offering higher success rates with women through the following of their advice is just ludicrous.

            All I’m saying is, if the woman truly believes her materials yield the success which she herself claims through outlandish rhetoric is possible, it would behoove her to provide a satisfaction guaranteed clause, as many businesses do.

          • MD

            First of all: how self obsessed do you have to be to have as many usernames as you’ve got right now? Surely one is enough? Or are you suffering from some sort of personality disorder?

            “A wing girl offers advice, materials, and a set of actions that if
            taken, (as stated by her) will yield success with women (which includes but isn’t limited to, the act of sex with a woman, from whom the client/customer desires). To say that wingwomen, such as Marni are not offering higher success rates with women through the following of their advice is just ludicrous.”

            They are offering dating advice. Not sex. They are not prostitutes.

            “All I’m saying is, if the woman truly believes her materials yield the
            success which she herself claims through outlandish rhetoric is
            possible, it would behoove her to provide a satisfaction guaranteed
            clause, as many businesses do.”

            Marni’s rhetoric is not outlandish. And I say again: attempting to obligate or pressure a woman into sleeping with a guy as part of a business satisfaction guarantee is rape. You advocate rape.

            You do seem obsessed with the idea of wing girls sleeping with their clients. I wonder….do you have a crush on Marni, by any chance?

          • skwhasANOTHERname

            “They are offering dating advice. Not sex. They are not prostitutes.”

            Advice that is clearly geared to increase your chances of having sex with women. Just look at the rhetoric, try to be honest for once.

            “Marni’s rhetoric is not outlandish.”

            Sure it is, it’s hyperbole, absolutist rhetoric. “Get women to do whatever you want” is clearly hyperbole, meant to excite men into think they can have any kind of sexual desire fulfilled, as is the title of her book “Get inside her” obviously a reference to sticking one’s dick in said female’s pussy.

            “And I say again: attempting to obligate or pressure a woman into sleeping with a guy as part of a business satisfaction guarantee is rape.”

            False again. attempting to make money off of horny, lonely guys while offering them no guarantees (or nothing even close to a guarantee) is cruel, callous and manipulative. you advocate all of these.

            “You do seem obsessed with the idea of wing girls sleeping with their clients. I wonder….do you have a crush on Marni, by any chance?”

            It matters what you mean by crush, surely I’m interested in sleeping with her, what heterosexual male wouldn’t want to? I’ve said as much already. I was direct in stating my interest, after all one of her big advice pieces is to “be direct and GO FOR IT!” which I have.

          • MD

            “Advice that is clearly geared to increase your chances of having sex
            with women. Just look at the rhetoric, try to be honest for once.”

            You are paying the wing girl for advice not for her to sleep with you. Therefore the wing girl is not a prostitute.

            “Sure it is, it’s hyperbole, absolutist rhetoric. “Get women to do
            whatever you want” is clearly hyperbole, meant to excite men into think they can have any kind of sexual desire fulfilled, as is the title of
            her book “Get inside her” obviously a reference to sticking one’s dick
            in said female’s pussy.”

            It’s still advice. What you make of that advice is up to you.

            “False again. attempting to make money off of horny, lonely guys while
            offering them no guarantees (or nothing even close to a guarantee) is
            cruel, callous and manipulative. you advocate all of these.”

            If Marni’s customers have a problem with her products or advice they can talk to her about getting a refund (her refund policies are of course up to her). Nobody here is pressured into buying Marni’s products and Marni offers advice here for free. So these “horny, lonely guys” (not everyone who reads this site is like you) can just take the free advice, use it and pay nothing. How kind of Marni to offer her advice for free like that. And with no obligation to buy a product too.

            Attempting to force a wing girl into having sex with a guy as part of a business satisfaction guarantee (when she has no desire to sleep with said guy) is coercion, pressure and basically: rape.

            “It matters what you mean by crush, surely I’m interested in sleeping
            with her, what heterosexual male wouldn’t want to? I’ve said as much
            already. I was direct in stating my interest, after all one of her big
            advice pieces is to “be direct and GO FOR IT!” which I have.”

            So, that’s a yes then. Thought so. Explains the over emotional, over the top reaction to her banning you from here and the whitehouse petition to try and get her attention.

          • skw

            “You are paying the wing girl for advice not for her to sleep with you. Therefore the wing girl is not a prostitute.”

            of course, but it’s advice that’s supposed to directly result in experience in sleeping with a woman, or many women.

            “It’s still advice. What you make of that advice is up to you.”

            What ever happened to human empathy? men having a right to have their money spent actually yield the results advertised?

            How could you be so callous and morally bankrupt? Not even a care if guys spend their money and get what is specifically advertised to them. Taking an attitude of “well it’s just advice, it doesnt matter if you succeed or not!”

          • MD

            “of course, but it’s advice that’s supposed to directly result in experience in sleeping with a woman, or many women.”

            It’s advice. Not a one size fits all magic formula for success with women.

            “What ever happened to human empathy? men having a right to have their money spent actually yield the results advertised?”

            I’ve said many times that, if a man has a problem with the product or advice they can seek a refund. It’s you who talk about pressuring people into sex as part of a bizarre business guarantee. And again: it is not a magic, one size fits all formula that automatically gets a guy success with all women all the time. Results vary and depend largely on who the guys is and what he does.

            “How could you be so callous and morally bankrupt? Not even a care if
            guys spend their money and get what is specifically advertised to them. Taking an attitude of “well it’s just advice, it doesnt matter if you
            succeed or not!”

            It is just advice and coaching. Not a magic one size fits all formula that guarantees success with all women all of the time. The guy needs to put the work in.

          • skw

            “It’s advice. Not a one size fits all magic formula for success with women.”

            Really? maybe you can explain why Marni titles some of her posts with rhetoric like “How to get women to do whatever you want”

            If that doesn’t sound like absolutist rhetoric, then I don’t know what is.

            “I’ve said many times that, if a man has a problem with the product or advice they can seek a refund.”

            Which I said was acceptable, of course you’ve also said it’s up to Marni’s discretion whether to give the refund, which is yet more disregard for the male as a human being. Again your empathy seems to disappear when discussing this point.

            “It is just advice and coaching. Not a magic one size fits all formula that guarantees success with all women all of the time. The guy needs to put the work in.”

            And this is my point, the wing girl can take money *after* the fact, if she really cares for the man’s success as opposed to lining her own pockets. Obviously the man will put the work in, he wants to succeed (I have put more work in than likely anyone else reading this thread, I also have a steeper climb as well) but I still have yet to succeed.

            The failsafe is extreme I admit, I’ just say that if a wing girl were to offer such a guarantee, it would only solidify my belief in her having absolute faith in her product, and that her desire to help men is paramount, rather than her desire to take money from struggling men who are having fear of lonliness used against them (I will give you the EDGE! Why? because I have a vagina!)

            by the way – this unscruplous behavior is used in the myriad of weight-loss products targetted towards women. Essentially using fear to goad women into purchasing, then saying “whoops! you made the purchase, it’s up to you to lose weight now, our hands are out of it!”

            This isn’t a supermarket, it isn’t “entertainment” it isn’t “advice” to trivialize it is to cast out that all important empathy you want us to have for women, which again, is selective and hypocritical (which seems to be a defining characteristic with you)

          • MD

            “Really? maybe you can explain why Marni titles some of her posts with rhetoric like “How to get women to do whatever you want” If that doesn’t sound like absolutist rhetoric, then I don’t know what is.”

            Are you suggesting Marni somehow imparts voodoo mind control powers to her clients that make women do whatever you want? Of course, this leaves aside the truth that you have no authority to critique the rhetoric Marni uses. You act like this is your website when it’s not. If you don’t like what is said here then leave.

            “Which I said was acceptable, of course you’ve also said it’s up to
            Marni’s discretion whether to give the refund, which is yet more
            disregard for the male as a human being. Again your empathy seems to disappear when discussing this point.”

            You really are using “troll logic” now. Because I point out that it’s Marni’s business and she’s in charge of what refunds she gives (whilst observing all relevant laws), I’ve suddenly lost my empathy for men?

            “And this is my point, the wing girl can take money *after* the fact, if
            she really cares for the man’s success as opposed to lining her own
            pockets. Obviously the man will put the work in, he wants to succeed (I have put more work in than likely anyone else reading this thread, I
            also have a steeper climb as well) but I still have yet to succeed.”

            Again: you do not understand the nature of a business. You don’t take food home from a supermarket without paying but promise to pay if the food tastes good. Marni has a right to have a business and sell her products. You either buy them or you don’t. If you buy them and want a refund, you discuss it with her. You don’t expect her to give her products for free under some vague promise you’ve made to pay if you get laid. It’s not a given that the guy will put the work in. If you want stuff for free, take the advice here that’s offered for free.

            “The failsafe is extreme I admit,”

            It’s extreme, sexist, illegal, aggressive, wrong and rape.

            “I’ just say that if a wing girl were to offer such a guarantee, it would only solidify my belief in her having absolute faith in her product, and that her desire to help men is paramount, rather than her desire to take money from struggling men who are having fear of lonliness used against them (I will give you the EDGE! Why? because I have a vagina!)”.

            Women are not sex objects that you can use to satisfy your worries about a product. They are human beings.

            “by the way – this unscruplous behavior is used in the myriad of
            weight-loss products targetted towards women. Essentially using fear to goad women into purchasing, then saying “whoops! you made the purchase, it’s up to you to lose weight now, our hands are out of it!”

            Where is Marni using fear to force people to purchase her products? Because I can’t see any videos of her cackling: “purchase my products or you will never have success with women…ha…ha!!” Your paranoia about what a woman you don’t even know does in her business is disturbing.

            “This isn’t a supermarket, it isn’t “entertainment” it isn’t “advice” to
            trivialize it is to cast out that all important empathy you want us to
            have for women, which again, is selective and hypocritical (which seems to be a defining characteristic with you)”

            Yes it is advice. That’s the whole point of the website. To advise men and women on dating. And it’s odd that you talk to me of hypocrisy when you have such anger and hate for the women you supposedly wish to attract.

          • MD

            “It’s not rape you idiot, if it’s offered as a term of the agreement,
            it’s consensual.”

            She’s being coerced into offering it as part of satisfaction guarantee that the client insists on. If force, obligation, coercion and pressure are involved then she is not acting of her own free will and thus: rape.

            “Secondly, as I’ve said a million times but what you do
            not seem to comprehend, is the satisfaction guaranteed is defined by
            what the business claims to offer. If it’s a working computer, then
            that’s what I expect, if it’s success with women, that’s what I expect.”

            A woman is a human being. Not some object that can be offered as part of a satisfaction guarantee.

            “No, but she does claim to make you more sexually attractive thereby resulting in more sex for you.”

            Still not a prostitute. I.E: Not someone you are paying for sex.

            “It’s not against her will you retard. She’s agreeing to it because it’s
            what she is taking money for – ie to increase your sexual value. (in an
            indirect manner, not a direct manner as a prostitute)”

            We’ve already established a wing girl is not a prostitute. So she is not there to take money in exchange for sex. And, under what you are trying to suggest, she would be coerced, pressured and forced into offering sex solely as part of a bizarre business satisfaction guarantee. That’s not consensual. She’s pressured into it.

            “Sure, refunds are acceptable, as I’ve said earlier. So are future sessions.”

            And what is not acceptable is attempting to obligate, force or pressure someone into sleeping with you.

            “I’m saying from the point of view of the person taking money, offering
            such a guarantee, in my view solidifies and removes any notion the
            wingwoman is trying to “rook” me. Is it extreme? Also, many wingwomen don’t even offer refunds.”

            So the wing girl must be coerced and pressured into sleeping with someone she does not want to sleep with in order to satisfy your paranoia? It is extreme. It’s also entitlement, ridiculous, sexist, egotistical and aggressive.

            “The real problem here is the person taking money can absolve themselves by shifting the responsibility onto the person paying saying it’s their “responsibility to change” gee really? I needed to pay someone $200 an hour to have them tell me it’s my responsibility to change ?”

            It is your responsibility to change. It’s your life. Other people can help but that’s it. You don’t need to pay anyone anything for coaching. That’s your choice.

            “That’s more bizarre, and morally bankrupt than anything I’ve suggested, taking money from someone promising them changes in their life experience then just offsetting the responsibility onto them and say , “oh you didn’t get what you want? oops well, it’s your fault! go change yourself!”

            You suggested that rape be offered as a satisfaction guarantee simply to satisfy your own paranoia. I’m assuming you’re trolling as yet another way of avoiding taking personal responsibility for your own life. But if you actually believe this stuff then you need help.

          • skwISRuthlesslyHonest

            “She’s being coerced into offering it as part of satisfaction guarantee that the client insists on. If force, obligation, coercion and pressure are involved then she is not acting of her own free will and thus: rape.”

            Not at all – she’s willingly entering into a satisfaction guaranteed contract (if she’s truly committed to helping guys) based on the business model she’s chosen, if she does not want to enter into such a guarantee, then she is more than free to not advertise herself as a resource for facilitating men to achieve success with women, including sexual pleasure with women. What’s is wrong is advertising yourself as a resource for helping men succeed, then throwing your arms up in the air and backtracking from that when that success doesn’t take shape.

            “A woman is a human being. Not some object that can be offered as part of a satisfaction guarantee.”

            Men are human beings as well, not just clients or customers that are sources of money, or “markets” for “dating advice” that are responsible for their own success (when they’ve been clearly lead on to believe that following said advice will yield tangible results which includes increased sexual activity).

            If you’re going to apply the “human being” and empathy cards, then they have to apply consistently across the board. But consistency is something you seem to lack even in the most trivial of debates, never mind this one.

          • MD

            “Not at all – she’s willingly entering into a satisfaction guaranteed
            contract (if she’s truly committed to helping guys) based on the
            business model she’s chosen, if she does not want to enter into such a
            guarantee, then she is more than free to not advertise herself as a
            resource for facilitating men to achieve success with women, including
            sexual pleasure with women.”
            Again, I seriously hope you are trolling. Because if you’re not, you need serious professional help. First things first: women are not resources they are people. Human beings. Secondly: you’re dictating that a woman can’t advertise herself as a wing girl unless she prostitutes herself to her clients. Which is pressure and coercion and basically: rape. She’s not willingly entering into anything. The question of whether the wing girl actually wants to sleep with anyone has not entered your head. The wing girl’s emotions, personality and desires have not entered in your head either. You’re not treating her like a human being. You’re trying to force her into something against her will. That’s coercion and pressure and rape.

            “Men are human beings as well,”

            Nobody said men aren’t human beings.

            “If you’re going to apply the “human being” and empathy cards, then they
            have to apply consistently across the board. But consistency is
            something you seem to lack even in the most trivial of debates, never
            mind this one.”

            You refer to women as “resources” and advocate rape. I really don’t think anyone needs empathy lessons from you.

          • skwISBACK

            “Regardless of the claims they make or the rhetoric they use, no woman should be pressured or obligated into sleeping with anyone (the same is true for any man).”

            Funny you talk about moral bankrupcty and say this in the same sentence, so in your view people can make all kinds of wild claims and not be held accountable to said claims?

            Let’s get rid of the FDA for that matter, who cares if a pharma company says their medicine will make you better, regardless of their claims, in the fine print they utter at the speed of light all the risks, but in their advertising all they show is people riding horses playing golf and shit, living happy lives. All that doesn’t matter right? It’s the consumers decision to buy and take the medicine right?

            It appears you are the true morally bankrupt person here, by granting impunity to people who make such audacious claims and don’t back them up. No wonder your initials are MD. they are the biggest perpetrators in this regard.

          • MD

            “Funny you talk about moral bankrupcty and say this in the same sentence,so in your view people can make all kinds of wild claims and not be held accountable to said claims?”

            People can be held accountable for the claims they make. But there is a difference between holding someone accountable for what they say and obligating someone into sleeping with someone.

            “Let’s get rid of the FDA for that matter, who cares if a pharma company says their medicine will make you better, regardless of their claims, inthe fine print they utter at the speed of light all the risks, but in their advertising all they show is people riding horses playing golf and shit, living happy lives. All that doesn’t matter right? It’s the
            consumers decision to buy and take the medicine right?”.

            At what point in holding pharma companies accountable do they pressure people into sleeping with other people?

            “It appears you are the true morally bankrupt person here, by granting
            impunity to people who make such audacious claims and don’t back them up. No wonder your initials are MD. they are the biggest perpetrators in this regard.”

            You advocated the coercion of a person into sleeping with someone else. I granted impunity to nobody. There are these things called laws and regulations which hold people to account for various things. But at no point in that process of holding people to account are people pressured into sleeping with people they do not want to sleep with.

          • skwWAWA

            “People can be held accountable for the claims they make. But there is a difference between holding someone accountable for what they say and obligating someone into sleeping with someone.”

            That difference is trivial if what they say happens to be “you can get whatever you want from women” by following their advice. If wing girls advised on how to make the perfect cupcake frosting, I wouldnt obligate them to sleep with me if I didn’t get the perfect cupcake frosting.

          • MD

            human beings are not business satisfaction guarantees. You’re unhappy with something you bought? You ask for a refund and get your money back. You don’t try to obligate or pressure people into sleeping with you.

          • skwisTruth

            “Where, exactly, is Marni claiming to alter people’s lives forever. She gives dating advice and coaching to men and women.”

            Are you stupid? Of course she does, I don’t think she’d disagree with that one bit. dating advice and coaching to alter your experiences IN THE LONG TERM. You’ve got to be the dumbest person in the world to not understand this.

          • MD

            Marni gives dating advice and coaching for men and women. It’s up to her clients to alter their experiences in the short and long term.

          • Marni Wing Girl

            Use your common sense and fit advice into your own situations guys.

            Marni :D

        • Andrew

          And women don’t have to take personal responsibility

    • Larkvall

      Being equal and being treated the same are 2 different things. The important thing is we now know that women want us to pay for the first date. This seems reasonable since they are also expecting us to plan it so we have total control. Obviously if things get serious and more expensive plans are being made then there needs to be a discussion, but until there is a problem I suggest don’t sweat the small stuff.

      • skwisBACK

        “Being equal and being treated the same are 2 different things.”

        How so. a woman wants to email the same amount of money for the same amount of work. thats being the same as men, and rooted in a desire to be treated equal. How are they different?

        “This seems reasonable since they are also expecting us to plan it so we have total control.”

        Are you saying women want men to control them?

    • uchi

      Women don’t want equality. They want special treatment.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jim.lyle.315 Jim Lyle

    I’ve been out of the dating world for over 20 years and I’m terrified as to how to get back into it. I feel really out of touch.

    • SKWisback

      read some books on the 16th century courtship. women haven’t evolved beyond that. they only want change in the areas where they are discriminated against, in the areas that men are discriminated against, they’re all for letting those differences stay in place.

      • http://www.facebook.com/sal.canzonieri Sal Canzonieri

        yep, in reality, modern women have a double standard, there’s the kind of guy that somehow excited them physically and that they will do anything with in a quick fling as long as no one will find out and they have no intention of creating a relationship with this kind of guy; and then there is all the other guys that she will make them sweat to figure out how to press all her majesty’s buttons just right. Women from previous generations who have already been married once before are usually past these games.

  • Parkey

    I agree with some of this, but for the most part the things they say here are the typical kinds of irrelevant window dressing that most women come out with when asked what they want.

    Seriously, I’ve had no trouble setting a date as something as simple as going for a walk in the park together. It’s quite natural for that to escalate into drinks or dinner, going Dutch, and kissing at the end of it, if not before. When they meet a man they are attracted to women DON’T CARE about 90% of the stuff they typically say they want on a first date.

    The key things that make a difference to whether or not meeting a first meeting woman escalates into an intimate relationship women will describe using nebulous terms such as “chemistry” that aren’t helpful at all. The “oh it was just meant to be!” factor. In practical terms what this really comes from is the man, by skill and practice, or very occasionally blind luck, through his actions creating attraction and not making any one of a number of easy mistakes.

  • MD

    Turns out you can approach women by asking women if they like World of Warcraft. I did it to see what happened and I also asked my female friends for honest opinions about how they’d react to a guy coming up to them talking about World of Warcraft. One very attractive woman would be fine with it so long as that was not all you talked about and you had other interests. No women ran away from me when doing this approach. Some were puzzled because it’s a bit of a pattern interrupt just to be asked that randomly by a stranger but most were happy to chat for a while. Thinking of an angry, bitter, troll proven to be crap. Good result.

    • skwISTRUTH

      “One very attractive woman would be fine with it so long as that was not all you talked about and you had other interests. No women ran away from me when doing this approach”

      They ran away internally. Do you know how to read? I’ve already said this, they will just tune you out as a geek/dweeb/loser.

      I’d like to poll these women to see how many were sexually attracted by the discussion of world of warcraft. Most women will be polite and talk about anything, that’s not the issue. Who gives a flying $#@#( if women were “fine” with it, the point is, are they attracted to it. 9 times out of 10 they won’t be. You haven’t “proven” anything.

      • MD

        “They ran away internally. Do you know how to read? I’ve already said this, they will just tune you out as a geek/dweeb/loser.”

        It would be very odd for a woman who is “running away internally” to actively engage in the conversation at the same time. Which is what the majority of the women I approached did. I’m not a mind reader, but the women I approached gave no signs that they were tuning me out or dismissing me as a geek/dweeb/loser. For added good measure, I wore a top which advertised my love for a science fiction TV show. I made myself into a walking geek and opened with the World of Warcraft opener. And things went fine.

        “I’d like to poll these women to see how many were sexually attracted by
        the discussion of world of warcraft. Most women will be polite and talk
        about anything, that’s not the issue. Who gives a flying $#@#( if women
        were “fine” with it, the point is, are they attracted to it. 9 times out
        of 10 they won’t be. You haven’t “proven” anything.”

        I have no idea whether the women I approached wanted to sleep with me or not. I wasn’t trying to get laid. I wanted to see what would happen if I used the World of Warcraft opener. Anything that happened was basically a bonus. The majority of the women approached actively engaged in the conversation. There are no magic words you can say to make sure you’re getting laid. But I proved that you can go up to women and talk about World of Warcraft.

        Every women is different and every approach is going to be different. I wasn’t trying to get anything from the women. I just had a plan to use that particular opener and see what happened.

        • skwisBack

          “I have no idea whether the women I approached wanted to sleep with me or not. I wasn’t trying to get laid. I wanted to see what would happen if I used the World of Warcraft opener”

          Listen, I can open with a discussion about the different types of dog shit and their various smells if the only goal is to have them politely smile and nod. I’m not sure what you consider “actively engaged” did they ask you about where you play warcraft, how often you play, why you play, what drives you to play, how many levels are there (Marni herself derogatorily said, “is there a level 100″) a true warcraft fan would know.

          I’d like a transcript of the conversation, and next time a video recording. Otherwise I don’t trust your definition of “actively engaged”

          • MD

            “Listen, I can open with a discussion about the different types of dog
            shit and their various smells if the only goal is to have them politely
            smile and nod.”

            Fair enough. But if you can open with a discussion about the different types of dog poo and it’s various smells then that does suggest women would be more than happy to hear about World of Warcraft since World of Warcraft is a much better topic of conversation than dog poo is.

            “I’m not sure what you consider “actively engaged” did they ask you aboutwhere you play warcraft, how often you play, why you play, what drives you to play, how many levels are there (Marni herself derogatorily said,”is there a level 100″) a true warcraft fan would know.”

            By “actively engaged”, I mean they contributed to the conversation. They added their voice, their opinions etc to the conversation. If I stopped talking for a bit they’d re-engage the conversation.

            “I’d like a transcript of the conversation, and next time a video
            recording. Otherwise I don’t trust your definition of “actively engaged”"

            Having listened to many of your arguments I’m not sure you’d ever believe anything exists outside of your own ideas about the world. You already seem to believe that all men experience approaching women as a burden full of emotional risk and that all women conform to your ideas and beliefs about them. You think you know how individual women experience rejection and dating so I doubt even a transcript and a video recording would convince you that things exist beyond your beliefs.

            You want proof of what I’m saying? Then why not try the World of Warcraft opener for yourself and see what results you get? Your results will most likely not be the same as mine and you may well encounter women who do not want to talk to you. But that’d happen no matter what opener you were using.

          • skwIsBack

            “Fair enough. But if you can open with a discussion about the different types of dog poo and it’s various smells then that does suggest women would be more than happy to hear about World of Warcraft since World of Warcraft is a much better topic of conversation than dog poo is.”

            Thats my point, if the goal is to sexually attract her, then it’s not. if the goal is to just have her nod and say mm hmm then you can talk about nearly everything.

            “Having listened to many of your arguments I’m not sure you’d ever believe anything exists outside of your own ideas about the world.”

            how bout you just answer the question.

            “Then why not try the World of Warcraft opener for yourself and see what results you get?”

            I’ve tried, with starwars and other geek-related things. I just get polite nods.

          • skwISBack

            “By “actively engaged”, I mean they contributed to the conversation. They added their voice, their opinions etc to the conversation. If I stopped talking for a bit they’d re-engage the conversation.”

            And what was this hot girl’s opinion on world of warcraft, what was her voice and opinion other than “is there even a level 100 ?”

          • MD

            Some women responded by talking about their own love for computer games, some responded by actually talking about World of Warcraft, some responded better when I turned it into a question asking what they would say if a guy came up to them and told them they liked World of Warcraft. Depending on the reactions I got I would respond in different ways.

            The hot girl’s opinion was an interesting one. She’d been on a date recently with a guy who would not stop talking about World of Warcraft. Which she thought was fine but the guy didn’t talk about much else.

          • skwISBack

            “I didn’t go into the interactions with any other goal then to use the opener and see what happened.”

            Who gives a #$@# then? why is that relevant in a thread about success with women and what women want on dates ?

          • MD

            It’s relevant to a thread about success with women because it shows that you can open women with something that sounds like the oddest thing to say. It also shows that you can get good reactions from women even if what you’ve said does, on reflection, appear to be a little bit bizarre (at least in terms of starting a conversation).

          • Justin

            Dude, you’re not going to get anywhere with this guy. He sounds like a petulant child. He really, really, really wants (and from the sounds of it NEEDS) to get laid. He wants to have some fool proof, guaranteed way to do this. And you know as well as I do, this doesnt exist. I DO think he should probably start by trying to be less of a pompous ass. Can you imagine the shit he probably says to women who are unfortunate enough to talk to him? I don’t know if ive ever read something written by a bigger misogynist! Well maybe “The Scarlet Letter… but if the only person that I can think of to compare someones hatred of women to is Nathaniel Hawthorne, then I’d say that dude should probably just steer clear of women.
            I also like what you were saying regarding World of Warcraft. I personally dont play that game, but I do play a lot of video games and I also like comic books. I used to kinda hide that fact from girls because I thought that they would think that I was a “dork”. However, when I got older, I realized that most girls LIKE it if you’re a little dorky! I mean, they have just as many insecurities as we do so if you’re this super stud with absolutely zero flaws, shes going to start worrying that you might cheat or find someone else. Now I’m not saying one should approach women at the bar and start debating the age old question of who shot first: Greedo or Han, but its definitely beneficial for girls to see a “softer” or dorky side to you. Moreover, even if you want to go full on uber nerd, that works in some places too. Have you ever been to Comic Con? Or PAX? There are all kinds of hot nerd girls. And all the cosplay girls! Man I love cosplay…. but I digress,
            Anyway bro, I just wanted to applaud you for attempting to help this dude out, but I honestly feel that its a lesson in futility. I dont know exactly HOW ugly he is, but since he thinks that he is just gross, he is obviously going to convey that to the women he talks to. And Im pretty sure the one thing that every single woman finds attractive is confidence. This guy clearly has none. And hes mean to strippers! Seriously? Who the fuck does that? Most of the strippers I know are cool as hell. And usually quite attractive. I just dont understand why you’d be mean to someone who will take their clothes off for you if you want them to, I think this guy may be beyond help. In college, there were many occasions where I would make one of my dorky friends into a project. I would start hanging out with them more and helping them with how they dressed and stuff like that and then I would have them go out with me all the time and I would try to help them out. Mainly I would just try to keep their confidence levels high. And it always worked! After a few months, they’d be like new men! Now Im not saying that I’m some huge player or that im super good looking or super awesome. Im not trying to sound conceited. Im just pointing out that this worked with every single one of the guys I did it for…. but I feel that it wouldnt work with this guy. Hes too angry… I dont care how good looking you are, if youre sitting at the bar being all pissed off, no girl is going to want to talk to you. I feel bad for this guy, I really do. But like I said, I honestly think hes beyond help….

          • skwISBACK

            “The hot girl’s opinion was an interesting one.”

            I need to see a picture of this girl to determine is she’s actually hot or not.

          • MD

            For starters, I don’t have pictures of every woman I’ve ever spoken to.

            Secondly, I do not have permission from the women themselves to post pictures of the women in my life online so they can be looked at by random people.

          • skwisBACK

            “For starters, I don’t have pictures of every woman I’ve ever spoken to.”

            Maybe you should, if you want your outlandish claims of hot women responding positively to discussions of war craft, in the sense of facilitating sexual interest, to be believed.

            for example, if I made the claim “MD engages in rational thought” I better have something to back that up (which unfortunately has yet to emerge)

          • MD

            “Maybe you should, if you want your outlandish claims of hot women
            responding positively to discussions of war craft, in the sense of
            facilitating sexual interest, to be believed.”

            I’ve already suggested you go out and prove it to yourself. It’s hardly an outlandish claim to suggest that women have a rich and varied amount of interests on account of them being human beings.

          • skw

            “I’ve already suggested you go out and prove it to yourself. It’s hardly an outlandish claim to suggest that women have a rich and varied amount of interests on account of them being human beings.”

            No but it is outlandish to say those rich and varied interests include the inner workings of video games which is clearly evidenced by those who attend, being mostly men of a certain perceived social value. (normally referred in our parlance as “geeks” and “dweebs” and “nerds”, that don’t have sexual value)

            And I have proved it to myself, by attempting to discuss my true interests with many women, only to have them nod politely and not return my calls or requests for future dates. Which is why I required hard proof (especially from you, because of your demonstrated lack of basic intellectual honesty) when you make an outlandish claim saying that a hot girl was sexually turned on by a discussion about warcraft.

          • MD

            “No but it is outlandish to say those rich and varied interests include the inner workings of video games which is clearly evidenced by those who attend, being mostly men of a certain perceived social value. (normally referred in our parlance as “geeks” and “dweebs” and “nerds”, that don’t have sexual value)”

            Here’s a woman discussing the inner workings of video games:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q.

            Billions of women on the planet. It makes logical sense that some of those women might well be interested in video games.

          • MD

            “Thats my point, if the goal is to sexually attract her, then it’s not.
            if the goal is to just have her nod and say mm hmm then you can talk
            about nearly everything.”

            I didn’t go into the interactions with any other goal then to use the opener and see what happened. There’s no magic line that you use when you want a woman to be sexually attracted to you. For all I knew, some of the women I talked to might have been gay which would have made a goal of sexually attracting them pretty darn pointless. The important thing is not the goal you have in your head. The important thing is that you can talk bout pretty much anything with a woman so long as you have some social skills and social sense and are respectful when a woman does not wish to talk to you.

            “how bout you just answer the question.”

            I made a fair point.

            “I’ve tried, with starwars and other geek-related things. I just get polite nods.”

            Have you tried going to science fiction conventions and talking to the women there?

            Polite nods is a good start. All women are different. If she looks as if she’s not engaging with the topic then talk about something else.

          • skwISLogical

            “There’s no magic line that you use when you want a woman to be sexually attracted to you. For all I knew, some of the women I talked to might have been gay which would have made a goal of sexually attracting them pretty darn pointless.”

            “Have you tried going to science fiction conventions and talking to the women there?”

            you’re using an outlying case to prove the general, which a logical person doesn’t do, but I’m dealing with you.

            “If she looks as if she’s not engaging with the topic then talk about something else.”

            but Im not interested in those things, are you suggesting I become interested in things that she’s interested in only? just change myself for her?

          • MD

            “you’re using an outlying case to prove the general, which a logical person doesn’t do, but I’m dealing with you.”

            I’m asking you the question of whether you’ve approached women/talked to women in a science fiction convention? It stands to reason that people who have paid money to go see a science fiction convention might be interested in talking about science fiction.

            “but Im not interested in those things, are you suggesting I become
            interested in things that she’s interested in only? just change myself
            for her?”
            No, I’m highlighting the truth that there is such a thing as flogging a dead horse conversationally and if the other person does not fully engage with what you’re talking about then it may well be best to talk about other things.

            I talk with women about things I’m not interested in. I talk with women about things I am interested in and I talk with women about things I am interested in finding out about. Your interests are your own business but if you only have conversations with people about stuff that interests you then it’s going to be hard for people to connect with you unless they happen to share your interests to begin with. Learning to talk to people about things that interest them and listen to people when they talk about things they find interesting is a great social skill to learn.

          • skwisBack

            “I’m asking you the question of whether you’ve approached women/talked to women in a science fiction convention?”

            And Im saying that doesn’t matter, obviously women at a sci-fi convention will be intersted in sci-fi, but they dont represent women at large. but they don’t represent women at large. This is error’d thinking because it’s attempting to generalize based on an outlier.

            “Learning to talk to people about things that interest them and listen to people when they talk about things they find interesting is a great social skill to learn.”

            This is all nonsense I don’t need to hear, the point is to generate sexual interest, not to just converse about warcraft, my interests, her interests, who gives a #$@(

            the point is, will it result in sex

          • MD

            “And Im saying that doesn’t matter, obviously women at a sci-fi
            convention will be intersted in sci-fi, but they dont represent women at
            large. but they don’t represent women at large. This is error’d
            thinking because it’s attempting to generalize based on an outlier.”

            I’ve said many times that women are individuals, that different women like different things and that different women react in many different ways to various openers/approaches. Basically: women are individual human beings. All this talk about women being individual human beings makes it unlikely I’m attempting to generalize anything.

            It is clear that you like talking about “geeky stuff” and Star Wars. So I suggested that you to go a science fiction/Star Wars event or convention and talked to the women there since the women there are highly likely to share your interests and want to talk about Star Wars.

            “This is all nonsense I don’t need to hear, the point is to generate
            sexual interest, not to just converse about warcraft, my interests, her
            interests, who gives a #$@( the point is, will it result in sex”.

            You think talking to people is a burden full of emotional risk so I think learning to connect with people is something you need to hear a lot about. The point is whatever you decide the point to be. You seem obsessed with getting sex from women when you don’t actually enjoy talking to women or really like women all that much. It’s no surprise you’re not getting anywhere thinking like that.

            Learning to connect with people is the very foundation of generating sexual attraction but going in there with an obsession about getting sex makes people uncomfortable, puts huge pressure on you that doesn’t need to be there and makes you view not getting sex as some kind of horrendous failure instead of simply something that happened.

        • Yureon

          No not really, they run away internally when you ask them for a phone number or dye and they say yes to avoid conflict and then don’t follow up. What you are experiencing is a variation of this.

  • William R.

    She just wants to be the center of attraction from the moment you decide to contact her for the date, stroll, casual unexpected meet up, but you have to know how to be consciously un-attached at the same time, if I’m too interested there’s no magic, create a sense of urgency to get to know you as well, you’ll need her attentiveness for your own validation or it’s a one sided meet. Humor is going to be your clue that you guys have chemistry, she needs you to be that guy who will make her little girl inside come out to play, (no matter what her position in life ). Guys get a supreme reward just to watch her laugh or want to punch you in a flirtatious way.
    You’ll get the idea once you trust yourself to make mistakes and not feel like it’s the end of the world. That’s when dating is so much fun. Most give to much thought to the date that they forget the most attractive aphrodisiac is “YOU” your natural you, that’s when you are spontaneously funny, charming, exciting, magnetic .

  • sangos

    Let me take a crack at it

    #1- In the first date assuming the girl already likes the guy physically, she will keep score of his personality. Of course dress, grooming and shoes still matter but the girl will get turned on by his confidence, which does not mean being a charging general btw.

    #2 – Confidence is actually self-confidence and esteem and humorous guy certainly ticks a girl as confident.

    #3 – Unless she is a gold digger a girl will put a man before his success.

    #4 – The man pays and we are assuming he asked her out.

    #5 – Gentlemanly period.

    #6 -Yes.

    #7 – He’s out. Who;s next :) …..question?

  • http://www.facebook.com/sal.canzonieri Sal Canzonieri

    I think it would be interesting to see you do the same conversation but with older women, there are tons of divoriced single women in their mid 40s to late 50s out looking for a relationship. It would be interesting to see what they are looking for, since they have “been there and done that” and have some baggage from their previous relationships.

  • KevinS

    I’d much rather hear a woman tell me flat out “No” or “You just aren’t doing it for me” which in her mind may seem rude and harsh, But I’d rather her simply get to the point and tell me to move on. Much easier!

    • M

      And if you know you`re not interested before you get to the restaurant (etc) please end the go-nowhere date BEFORE he spends $50 on you — otherwise you`re doing nothing but conning him out of a free meal (which makes you a horrible human being.)

  • Andrew

    its like all a woman has to have is a vagina in order to be called a woman, she is automatically accepted by life and society as a woman, but men have to have to earn the title and be wotthy enough of being called a “Man”more than just a penis to be accepted by life and society

    • Jeff

      someone needs to start a mens studies course, I wonder how that would go over. This answer that pissed me off most is this—>Rebecca: If a guy doesn’t pay for the first date, there
      will certainly not be a second one. I’ve had a guy go dutch on me for a
      coffee date. I think the total bill was $7 tops. It threw me off and
      left a bad taste in my mouth. I know we say we want to be equal and
      stuff but that’s in the work force, not the dating space. It just makes
      me feel really unwanted and unfeminine if a guy wants me to pay on the
      first date…….so you know they want to be equal but a priority in other places….you can’t just pick and choose were your equal…you either are or your not.

  • Wesley

    Women and their double standards. We wanted to be treated equally when it is convenient and wil benefit us…and not when it won’t.

  • Wesley

    That whole bit about them saying it concerns them if they are “cheap” on a date reflects the quality of the relationship is nonsense but typical female inferior logic. What they conveniently neglected to mention is chances are 100 percent, he approached asked, set up and gave his date a ride and the only thing that speaks to her is money spent. Taking thigs for granted.

    Well guess what here is something well more believable and relevant.
    When men are expected to give give give and make all the effort that reflects that the woman is to be treated like a princess. Hence all the terms out there like “gold-digger.”

    What exactly have you given him in return? What incentive have you presented for him to give you his attention? Exactly none, you bring nothing to the table and demand the world. I seriously doubt you women will read this but it’s time to wake up. This is why men mess up because they make the decision to keep “paying” into things instead of qualifying her and carefully considering if she was worth setting this whole evolution up.

    MEN! Listen up the next time you set up a date or are actually on one, make yourself aware whether or not she is presenting any reason or providing anything in return be it later on that evening or some other time, like offering to cook dinner or something it doesn’t have to be grand. I see many of you will come to did that it ends up being a “thank you I had a good time, let do it again.” (no presentation whatsoever here) or just no second date. In short, see if she makes any effort to please you next date or provide anything…

  • Ardiana the adventurer

    [i]But if I’m in “I’m looking for my [b]next[/b] boyfriend” mode, I decide pretty quickly.[/i]
    Heh heh. They even have a “mode” for getting more boyfriends on the flight, just like we guys have a separate slot for different girlfriends. I guess we’re not that different after all. Of course, this does nothing to help create a good relationship…
    At least the last part about reacting when they didn’t connect with him sounds realistic.

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  • http://www.kprobbins.com/ Kevin Patrick Robbins

    Rebecca says: “I know within the first 5 minutes if I want to see this guy again.”

    Rebecca also says: “If a guy doesn’t pay for the first date, there will certainly not be a second one.”

    If you know within five minutes if there’s going to be a second date or not, you should not make the guy pay for your drinks/dinner. Tell him then and there that there will not be a second date and pay for your share of the bill. Otherwise, you’re just leading him on and expecting him to pay for your drinks and meal. That’s not classy.

  • Rick

    Ladies, do a favor to men (and yourselves) everywhere and don’t follow the advice for the last question of avoiding calls or making excuses. If a guy is into you, anything besides a hard no is leaving the door open.

    If there’s no connection, grow a pair and be honest. It’s best for both parties in the long run. You don’t have to deal with him continuing to try to get in touch with you and he won’t have to struggle with whether or not you’re actually just busy or not into him.

  • M

    My gawd… these women in the interview were shallow, greedy and self-absorbed!

  • Guest

    LOL at this. Virtually none of what is said by these women reflects reality. “I want a gentlemen”. LOL! Riiight….women aren’t ruled by their conscious brain–they are ruled by their subconscious and a woman’s subconscious always contradicts the conscious.

  • Pierce

    in the end if ur too mean you’re a douche, and if ur too nice ur friendzoned, and girls never know what the hell they want soo wuts the points : /

  • Boom

    they only say wallet is not the first thing on blogs like this. but in reality?

  • Gabe Mangino

    American women are consumed with their “needs” being met and that is an inherently selfish mindset going into a relationship. Dudes- I met the Filipina of my dreams…She’s kind, works hard herself as a caretaker for the elderly, isn’t concerned with money at all and loves me for who I am- a big fat loving jerk. Watch out for cheaters south of the boarder, but for the most part, get rid of your bias towards white American women…they always assume that their stock is 10 times higher than what it is. That’s why there are so many women in their late 30s and 40s pretending that it was their decision. They refused to “settle” for some dude because he was cute, but too “nice.” I’m a world traveler, so here’s my advice…Go rock out in Scandinavia, Thailand, the Philipines, Argentina or rural Brazil. Peace.

  • Kevin

    Kevin

    All of these ladies seem like everything depends on what they think and how they feel. GEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m glad I’m with a girl who isn’t like any of these girls because they all seem to not have a good idea of what a real and good relationship is, and I agree most this sounds like window dressing.

  • Taylor

    How come I never an article summing up what women should do to please men on their first date??

  • Boom, Roasted

    #1 mistake Women make on a first date: Not knowing about pop punk.

  • Adrian

    There is value in this article but it’s also clear as day why a couple of these girls are single

  • lex longman

    I’d like to see what these women look like…i agree with most of there answer’s, especially ria’s on how you should act mid date…she sounded the most dateable…other than that i just pictured a bunch of taylor swift mixed with the chick from the notebook

  • Ken

    Why do guys have to make plans, come prepared with interesting things to talk about ( NOT WORK ) and try to charm the girl… and all the girl has to do is show up!? I think i’m going to rent my next date, if thats how its going to be.

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