Why Pick Up Artists Give Bad Advice

From:

November 29, 2011

Just when I think I have taken men two steps forward, I get emails like the one below.

Emails from guys telling me they have stumbled upon Pick Up Artist materials or advice from a “reputable resource” their friends have turned them onto, that ultimately blows up in their face.

Check out the email below, from a guy who stumbled upon an old Tom Leykis segment (ughhh!!) and was given the typical advice of “Just treat girls like crap.”.

Also check out how the “tactic” blew up in his face.

Email:
My response:

So guys, please DO NOT listen to other men who tell you, women are attracted to men who treat them like crap because WOMEN ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO MEN WHO TREAT THEM LIKE CRAP. The women who are drawn to these types of men are highly insecure and come with TONS of baggage.

If you want top quality, attractive women to want you and crave you, then treat them like the wonderful women they are. BUT be sure to remain the strong, confident, leading man you can be. That's what women are attracted to

I get that systems are essential for learning new skills BUT most men do not use The Game as a learning tool. They see it as the bible. The ultimate way of being. Therefore a lot of men get lost in the routines, lines and strategies that they actually forget how to be the one thing that women are really attracted to. A real live, human MAN.

Plus they get so caught in this new found power that they screw over women by messing with their heads and feeding off their insecurities. No good! And not helpful

I won’t go on blasting the PUA community because I believe there is good intention there. I also know there are some great teachings within the bad materials. But I will say one thing. The more you game now, the more you are screwing yourself, with women, on the back-end.

Check out this video of me at Speaking at a recent event about this topic. I will explain how using Pick Up Artist materials will bite you in the ass later on down the road.

WARNING: the video is very shaky but the information is essential for you to hear.

Want to know more about what women want? Let 46 women beautiful, amazing women tell you exactly what they want from men in every situation. Click Here to find out more.

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christofer

I don’t think that most guys take their
cues on how the treat women poorly from
PUAS…After a certain point,some noticed
that the guy who treated women like trash
(and less than his equal) never seemed to
have trouble garnering female attention
& was never alone for any extended period
of time.

True,Women may not consciously be attracted to men who treat them poorly.Instead they are attracted
to the traits of those who would
treat them poorly(assertiveness,
confidence,absence of fear,
apprehension,etc)
Kevin

I thought women were only attracted to weathly,famous,handsome men like Christopher and SKW say in every blog over and over.
skw

“please DO NOT listen to other men who tell you, women are attracted to men who treat them like crap because WOMEN ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO MEN WHO TREAT THEM LIKE CRAP.”

I’ve been nice and respectful to women my entire life, in fact enough for 2 lives – with nearly 0 level of attraction.

I’m not saying “treat women like crap” but Marni you have to realize that this type of behavior IS relative!

ie. what “treat like crap” means to some, might not mean it to others. Obviously don’t be disrespectful, but here’s an example, I had a girl come late REPEATEDLY- and always had an excuse, and I just smiled and said “thats ok” – If I said something, to me I’m negating her excuse, not understanding, so it might be “treating her like crap” depending on how you view it.

Do you see the point? Do you see why “treat women like crap” is so much floated as the way to go? because we’ve treated women nicely and gotten exactly dick from it.

“I thought women were only attracted to weathly,famous,handsome men”

and I thought Kevin was a brudish tard, interested in telling people they don’t succeed because they just plain suck, and basically had nothing valuable to add to the discussion… glad I was wrong.
Laslo

My father once gave me the advice “treat her mean to keep her keen”. I think this was the worst advice he ever gave me. There are probably worse examples such as “No matter how good you are, there is always going to be someone out there who is better” Which was a pretty odd thing to say to a nine year old.

Anyway, regarding treating women nicely as the above guy stated. I think the operative word should be respect. You need to respect yourself primarily. When you respect yourself you can respect a woman enough to treat her nicely but call her out on her bullshit such as constantly running late, breaking promises etc. If you call a girl out for disrespecting you, you are not treating her like crap. You just need to let her know you will not put up with it.
Al Bixby

So he did all Tom said to do and it didn’t work. Or did it? He is still talking to her and she wants to talk to him.
skw

“True,Women may not consciously be attracted to men who treat them poorly”

Exactly, doesn’t Marni herself state here:

“To be fair, many women do not actually comprehend what women want or why they do the things they do. Most women will be able to tell you exactly what they WISH they wanted, but very few are able to say what they genuinely want.”
Mark

Women and gurus may not comprehend it but I can!

If you look HOT then yes it may help to be that cool sort of guy who is neither too nice nor a total jerk and have the “big four” qualities that Scot McKay yammers on about incessantly, but its not necessary. Nor is wealth or fame for that matter. In fact a true test of how hot and physically attractive you are is to be the nice guy, because on many occasions you can be a WUSSY and still get the hot women if they think youre hot (Think Mark Wright in I’m a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here 2011)…. or Mario Balotelli for that matter who can’t even put on a training bib for crying out loud!
Parkey

I think what this comes down to is impact. Women are attracted to men who affect them emotionally. Inoffensive men, regardless of how honest, sincere and kind they are, do not get noticed.

I’ve “met” more women in my life to whom I have been nothing but polite and respectful and been punished mercilessly for it. All you get is social autopilot responses.

I’ve only just really started to realise that clapping my hands in front of a woman’s face and shouting “wake up!” would be infinitely more likely to attract her because at least then she’ll have noticed I exist.

This is of course why many men treat women like crap. It’s negative emotion but at least it’s emotion. It gets them noticed.

I’m not saying go around clapping your hands in front of women’s faces. My point here is that one of my most rewarding experiences recently has been learning to blast my personality out there unapologetically. Being inoffensive does not work. You need to get an emotional response, and the only way you’ll do that is risk it being a negative one.
skw

“You need to get an emotional response, and the only way you’ll do that is risk it being a negative one.”

I think you’re spot on here.
Mark

Wow Parkey and Skw agreeing… !

I tend to agree to an extent with this negative emotion being better than no emotion concept but its a very unconfident way to go about attraction. I’ve seen enough guys being nice and getting the women, but they’ve got to be an exciting sort of nice – ie. if some women says stuff like “I like nice guys” in a mixed set, just confidently, coolly and laughingly say “I’m a nice guy”, and she will lap it up (only if she fancies your appearance of course, but this goes without saying). She’ll go home with the guy that keeps agreeing in a cool, confident and somewhat humourous way as opposed to the “Over PUA-er” who tries to neg her and disagree the whole time because that’s what “the experts” tell him to do…

Watched people do this and have done it myself. Aussie hottie: “I love surfing” Me: “Yeah surfing’s awesome, who’s your favourite surfer” blah blah blah. Sounds simple but absolute gold! Oh and do all that word stretching stuff that the conversational dudes go on about it, it amplifies emotion and attraction and brings positive visual images into the woman’s head…
Mark

“I’ve “met” more women in my life to whom I have been nothing but polite and respectful and been punished mercilessly for it. All you get is social autopilot responses.”

Yep because polite, respectful and boring is a social autopilot attitude, so not surprising. Its basically saying to the woman “Youre not so hot, youre not worth more effort so I’m going to be worse than paint drying off a wall”. Or that youre not masculine and confident enough to go for it and talk about something exciting and get flirty and sexual.

If you want to go the road of “creating attraction in the absence of looks” (which as you probably know by now, I don’t advocate), then a little trick would be to be polite, respectful and boring to a hot woman who thinks all guys fancy her, and then within her earshot get flirty and sexual with another reasonably good looking woman and watch the hottie get jealous and want you. Again, not advocated by me, but can work wonders for social proof and “working the room” style attraction….
Mike

Hey Marni,

I really like how you suggested how to handle the situation, although I admit that I was suspicious when I read that she wanted to set up the date around dinner time.

I like how you suggested he handle it! Taking the lead and going with her time BUT saying drinks is the way to go. If she insists on them meeting for dinner, then he himself should back out.
- Marni Wing Girl
  
  Glad you liked it Mike
christofer

Great insight Parkey !! As skw wrote,
“spot on”.However,I think that if you
are extremely attractive or a woman’s
exact type…you may be able to
get away with being inoffensive but
then you possibly run into the
danger of become boring if you
do not provide some sort of drama/
excitement.
skwadim

“However,I think that if you are extremely attractive or a woman’s
exact type…you may be able to get away with being inoffensive”

well sure, of course, the woman will put up with more offensiveness initially.
Parkey

Like a lot of guys I’ve lost the interest of more women than I can count by being inoffensive, whereas I’ve never once scared a woman off by being too outgoing or too offensive.

Some of these guys who attract swarms of women actually have such bland empty personalities it’s untrue, but because they project themselves so unashamedly they get noticed.
Mark

Ive “scared woman off” loads of times by being too offensive and brash. But still if thats a reason for them to be scared off, I was clearly ok looking enough to have a half chance and that was that. If I was hotter looking, as Christofer alluded to, I wouldnt have to worry about being too offensive or inoffensive theyd likely open me and pull me either way. Theyd certianly give you more chances to figure out what they want through messing up.

And its high time that Marni and other gurus listen to what Ive got to say. Ive spent my day today 12 hrs in a row on the badoo website trying to get womens numbers and finding out what they want and LOOKS is the priority. After LOOKS of course they want the right character and personality for both relationships and often casual sex too as they must fel good. However I amf ed up with these PUAS puttign the cart before the horse. The material is fine Ive got no argument to what Marni, Scot McKay or John Alanis do, among others but if you dont look the part, you can generaly forget it, at least % wise, as most % of girls will reject you on that appearance basis. And its high tiem these people if they believe style makes a difference coached us in these areas if its not so much genetics and more down to style etc.

Ive just spent the entire day committed to this as I said and in about 1000 attempts got the number of ONE norwegian hottie for my trip to Oslo count it ONE. Others said I wasnt tall enough or their type etc so its physical, not inner game related. The hot women have the luxury of choosing both on physical and on personality/character/game and they do both. And on the second I didnt put a foot wrong and still got only one cute blonde 18 yr old, which I will follow up. But for that one, I was looks rejected by at least 40 others in straight words. So this was actually after attracting them intellectually and verbally through chat.

So an open invitation to Marni and all the PUAs and gurus who read this. I can provide you with photos. I can videotape myself, whatever you expect. But I value my money and want accountability. If you , Marni, or anyone else can tell me the flaws in my looks and style and perhaps my game and either accompany me in field or assist with online dating and IMPRVE them to the point of where Im getting respectable % of girls fancying me and interested, I am happy to pay per success rate. Or maybe a target and if I dotn reach the target, no win, no fee.

Because Im fed up, completely fed up of being constantly “looks rejected” and to be quite frank, its spoiling my mood and zest for life and I dont want that.

And anyone who wants to give smart ass comments or “inner game and attitude” suggestions please save it. Relevant suggestions only, please, I’ll be happy to provide pics if that helps.
Scott W

Push-pull is the way to go. You say or do something that suggests disinterest — such as playful teasing — and follow it with something warm or thoughtful. It’s the balance that Marni alludes to.

Honey mixed with a little pepper.

In the example used I didn’t see any real “treat her like crap” behavior. The guy didn’t insult the woman or stand her up or act rudely. He merely changed the date from dinner to drinks. He never should’ve agreed to dinner for a first online date.

He was so outcome-focused that he interpreted any resistance on her part as failure. There’s a big difference between attraction and approval — something that professional PUAs often mix up.
- Marni Wing Girl
  
  Hey Scott
  
  Thanks for your well considered comments. Dating, at least in its early stages, should be all about you: be man enough to know who you want to date, when and where and take strength in your convictions.
  
  And I do like the push-pull techniques that you referenced: as a woman we don’t want a guy who’s a jerk, but a guy who’s a push-over is just as unattractive
  
  Keep the comments coming Scott
Rajnish

Marni you my saviour. I had developed complex and all kinds of self-doubts about my dating philosophy after reading some of biggest dating gurus, who advise men to treat women like crap. I am so glad to hear the counter-point from you, which essentially is my own thinking. I mean, I do believe in wooing women with softness and real manliness can be shown in small things like opening door, paying tab, offering hand, etc. Well, chivalry is not supposed to be dead, riight!
- Marni Wing Girl
  
  I completely agree Rajnish- you can still be a strong man, with boundaries whilst still being chivalrous.
  
  Marni
AG

I found a girl I liked, I asked her out and had a great time. I wanted to hug her good night but was not sure if she would let me touch her (She was a very religious girl and in Israel these girls do not touch men unless they are married to them… but some are more open.) So I asked if she ever had her palm read, I showed her on my hand what this line is or that line…”Here give me your hand,” I said. She gave me her hand, I gave her a little 10 second intro on palm reading (all I knew), then I ran my fingers up her arm, and let her go. I had my answer, touching her did not violate her boundaries. Later that night I gave her a hug. The next date was a kiss, and after that…Women are sexual and want to be seduced, but they are also people who want to be treated with decency and respect.

That is why we make a list of boundaries. In my list I want a woman who has self respect and is open to new things. I went for what I wanted and got it.
santiago

I agree. The whole treating women like crap thing is just stupid. I think its coined negging or nagging. Idk. Its stupid. In my opinion its an attraction killer. These guys are becoming the douche assholes who stole/took/won their girlfriends away. I love your newsletters because your approach to meeting women just suits me. Being direct gets all the bullshit out of the way. Showing intent minus the creepy/awkward feel so that any woman can feel me. I love it. The women literally begin to work for me. Its unreal Marni. Your so awesome! Thank you!!
- Marni Wing Girl
  
  Hey Santiago
  
  I think this hits the nail on the head:
  
  “Being direct gets all the bullshit out of the way. Showing intent minus the creepy/awkward feel so that any woman can feel me” thanks for your support glad it’s helping you,
  
  Marni
- Marni Wing Girl
  
  Hey Santiago
  
  I’m glad you find that the no B-S approach works really well for you too
  
  Thanks for your support
  
  Marni
Martin

Here is a funny quick example of something very similar. One guy trys a edgy routine and it works, then someone down the bar tries the same… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEjarR6D30I&list=PL6D2A75440BBF7EE9&index=1&feature=plpp_video
Dan

You know what Marni…. I really like how outspoken you are and at the same time you really do care about ones way of life …Keep up the good work
- Marni Wing Girl
  
  Thanks for the support Dan!
  Marni
mc

Women, want to protect yourself against happiness? Read “The Game!”
bobcanada

I put on my profile on a dating site that I was a cab driver that didn’t make much money , but I had 2 university degrees , so I had the potential to , that I wanted my date to be protestant and not to gamble . I got some pretty good responses ,including a woman who lives in Beverly Hills in a penthouse , who doesn’t know why she is even talking to me , but can’t stop answering the phone . She says I am interesting , and can’t figure out why I didn’t lie about money like most guys . why bother lying? It’s too much of an effort , I am from Canada and we are kind of lazy up here .
joel simmons

interesting take on this subject because i have read, watch and study this kind of material for a while and basically all pick up artistes and dating guru’s all say the same thing buy only in their terms and if you want to know about the community that they want you to believe how it supposed to be you have to buy their programs and coming from a guy that has never had any experience at all in the dating world because i would just let nature run it’s course because i always believe in letting things come naturally instead of going against a person free will instead using mind tricks, NLP patterns, our having to change your personality to someone your not and other stuff that i know could hurt me more if i use what i was taught by other people calming to be pua’s and wind up scaring the person off that i am trying to be with and i know that a lot of them are scams so my questions is this why cant their be a real person with real results give out information for free instead of having to shell out money for boot camps and other programs that you know as a person that if you tried any of them the results would be scarey and if they fail your right back and the drawing board doing the same thing all over again
Marni Wing Girl

In that you shouldn’t pander too much to a woman: ask her for a date at a time that suits you, and take her to a place that you like, that you think she’ll dig too. Being a leader, decisive and happy in your convictions are all really attractive qualities
skw

Hmm ok -

But here’s a problem that I run into a lot, with this pandering thing.

Women rarely change their schedules to accommodate me, and they show up late- consistently.

Do you think that a woman should contribute at all to the dating process?
skw

Also had another question if you could answer it, would be most grateful

is it your contention that if a woman is not physically attracted to someone but will be attracted to them if they notice they are a ‘leader’ (I mean also here, we’re talking about leading in a particular space) and ‘decisive’ is in a particular space. (I mean, George W was decisive. doesn’t help if you’re making all the wrong decisions)

I’m also curious about your opinion as to the correlation between physical attractiveness and these other qualities you’re talking about.
Marni Wing Girl

Hey SKW

Lots of questions here that probably require a much longer discussion.

What I will say though is that attraction for women isn’t an on/off switch it’s a process that’s based on a complicated range of characteristics. Inevitably looks come into play, but they’re only really important if you have nothing else going on- and I know that every guy out there has something more to offer. Generally women are a lot less concerned about physical appearance than men though and instead emphasis other qualities that they’re looking for in a partner.

So what’s more important than hitting the gym four times a week (though I’m sure this helps too!) is developing attractive charcteristics that really push women’s buttons: amonst these are leadership, and decisive behaviour. However this is part of a much bigger picture and will vary woman to women.

Good luck

Marni
skw

Thanks Marni,

Just so I get this straight though, if a guy doesn’t have physical appearance, he can still get an attractive woman by showing decisive ability?

“Generally women are a lot less concerned about physical appearance than men though and instead emphasis other qualities that they’re looking for in a partner.”

I see this slightly different, men and women are equally concerned about physical appearance, however, men generally stop at that, women include other things, but still want the physical appearance.
skw

Just realized two things

1. Im talking about initial, short term attraction, even one night stands.. not long term dating or marriage. I think in the former, looks plays more relevance than you originally stated

2. You signed your last message “good luck” which means you’re probably not reading or going to respond to this.

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